The strange thing about Judas was that he saw all the miracles just like the other apostles. Did he think Christ was the Messiah and the son of God. I don't know. But as to your point that Jesus condemned Judas because he was a nonbeliever, it may have been because he knew Judas would not repent beforehand because he was God.

If I had to guess I would guess that Judas did not believe Jesus was God.

I understood that Judas was a believer who wanted to rush things along, maybe to get rid of the Romans, or maybe to usher in the Church faster. I think there is even some rite that makes an argument that Judas did NOT go to Hell.

Oh crap, the rite is the Roman Rite (NewChurch). Just saw it on EWTN.   I forgot. Faustina.

I don't believe for a moment that Judas turned Jesus over to be killed.  I believe he was so caught up in the world that he like other apostles and desciples wanted Jesus to do something to relieve them from the oppression of the Romans.  When Jesus didn't do this I think Judas turned Him over hoping that Jesus would be forced to do something to free Himself thereby starting the confrontation with the Romans and establishing His kingdom here on earth.   Judas never thought Jesus would let it go so far.

That having been said, when Judas realized the result of his actions I believe he was profoundly sorry;  so much so that he didn't see a way to forgiveness (Jesus was now dead ) and Judas descended into despair.  His sorrow like his despair was so painful he committed ѕυιcιdє

Despair like presumption (sins against the Holy Ghost) the church tells us are the sins the bible refers to that will not be forgiven, neither on earth nor in heaven.

Judas just didn't listen to Jesus "My kingdom is not of this world" and it cost him his soul.

You have an argument. But why would Christ tell Judas that it would be better that he had not been born? After/before Judas committed ѕυιcιdє, he must not have stood a chance for salvation. Otherwise, it would have been good for him to have been born.

Given that what you say is true, and Judas was doing it for those reasons, then perhaps Christ would not have used such condemning words.

My concern is, Christ used those words to condemn Judas, and perhaps those words played a role in Judas' ѕυιcιdє. It seems to make more sense that God said that only if Judas was not a believer. I can't see God saying that if Judas was a believer because Judas could have repented. God knows our hearts, and he knows our fate before it even happens. This is why I think Christ said what He said. Judas may have never stood a chance for salvation, and he might not have ever changed his heart even if he lived a full life.

I think Christ said to Judas "It would've been better you were never born" because he knew the man would go down in infamy as the betrayer of the Messiah with blood on his hands and his name (Judas) would forever be synomonus with betrayal. But I think we can only speculate whether Christ was indicating that he would lose his salvation over that act of betrayal and was better never having been conceived.

Having said this, I believe that Judas was one of the saddest characters in scripture, that's why the man did what he did.

But in the big picture of things, didn't Christ almost need him to do what he did in order for the Passion to take place?

Yes He did need Judas to betray Him. It was necessary for the lamb of God to be slaughtered before we could consume Him. He had to be made Kosher by the draining of His blood.

Quote from: Miseremini

I don't believe for a moment that Judas turned Jesus over to be killed.  I believe he was so caught up in the world that he like other apostles and desciples wanted Jesus to do something to relieve them from the oppression of the Romans.  When Jesus didn't do this I think Judas turned Him over hoping that Jesus would be forced to do something to free Himself thereby starting the confrontation with the Romans and establishing His kingdom here on earth.   Judas never thought Jesus would let it go so far.

That having been said, when Judas realized the result of his actions I believe he was profoundly sorry;  so much so that he didn't see a way to forgiveness (Jesus was now dead ) and Judas descended into despair.  His sorrow like his despair was so painful he committed ѕυιcιdє

Despair like presumption (sins against the Holy Ghost) the church tells us are the sins the bible refers to that will not be forgiven, neither on earth nor in heaven.

Judas just didn't listen to Jesus "My kingdom is not of this world" and it cost him his soul.

You have an argument. But why would Christ tell Judas that it would be better that he had not been born? After/before Judas committed ѕυιcιdє, he must not have stood a chance for salvation. Otherwise, it would have been good for him to have been born.

Given that what you say is true, and Judas was doing it for those reasons, then perhaps Christ would not have used such condemning words.


My concern is, Christ used those words to condemn Judas, and perhaps those words played a role in Judas' ѕυιcιdє. It seems to make more sense that God said that only if Judas was not a believer. I can't see God saying that if Judas was a believer because Judas could have repented. God knows our hearts, and he knows our fate before it even happens. This is why I think Christ said what He said. Judas may have never stood a chance for salvation, and he might not have ever changed his heart even if he lived a full life.

I can't believe that Christ did condemn Judas for the following reasons.
a)  Christ speaking in His humanity could merely have been predicting Judas' downfall based on knowledge of his behavior much like we look at someone's bad behavior and predict what will happen to them.  (When did Christ ever come even close to condemning or writing off anyone?)
                                       OR
b) Christ speaking in His divinity knew fully well the final outcome of Judas' actions and shared that knowlege with the apostles.

I have never read or heard of God condemning any human in time, that is to say BEFORE he dies.  To do so would take away the human's free will,  that which is required to co-operate with grace to convert repent or atone  Without free will we would be slaves or even less, nothing more than toys.  God would never take away our choice to be with Him or not.  God has in the past cursed humans and put obstacles in their way and made it more difficult for them but He has always left them a chance of salvation but they have to choose.

As to whether Judas was a non believer, the account of what happened in scripture proves that Judas was in fact a believer.  Had he not been a believer he would not have had remorse, and such profound remorse as to kill himself to stop the pain.  Had he been a Roman or pagan he would have just shrugged it off and not given it another thought .  After all crucifixions were common place.

Because Peter denied Christ do we say HE was a non believer?  When we sin do we call outselves non believers?  No, Judas was a frail human given to temptations who succuмbed to the temptation to first sin and then to despair.

It had long been prophesied that someone would betray the Messia but it was never prophesied that he would loose his soul.  Judas could have fullfilled the prophesy and betrayed Jesus and still saved his soul.  If only he had co-operated with Divine grace.  God has said, "My grace is sufficient for thee".

We know Christ chose Judas to be one of the original 12 apostles. We also know that some of the apostles struggled with believing. Do we know if Judas was a true believer or not? If he were a true believer then don't you think he wouldn't have acted the way he did? His actions almost imply that he did not believe. After all, what true believer would turn in God Himself to be killed?

Also, Christ tells Judas that it would have been better had he never been born. This, to me, sounds like condemnation. I can only imagine that God would say such a thing to a non-beleiver since believers can repent for their sins while still alive. I'm not so sure this same forgiveness applies to non-believers since belief is required for salvation. Its almost profitless for a non-believer to repent because they must believe in order to get into Heaven. Why would God condemn Judas if Judas could have repented for what he did? Thus judas must have been a non-believer.

Just some thoughts. Anyone have anything to add?

I think we need to get our terms straight before your question can be answered.  I'm not sure what you mean by "believer."  Do you mean belief in the one true God?  If that is your standard, then yes, Judas certainly could have been a believer.  The devil himself is a believer by that definition; he doesn't doubt God's existence, rather he rebels against God.

Perhaps you don't mean "believer," but rather something more like a "follower" of God.  If that's the case, it may be true that Judas was a follower of God, and he fell to sin.  St. John's Gospel would seem to indicate this:

the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray him

However, I'm not sure we can really know for sure, given how little is said about Judas in the Gospels.