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Poll

Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?

He was a traitor who tried to kill a great German leader.
7 (31.8%)
He was a Catholic hero who tried to save his country from the nαzιs.
10 (45.5%)
The attempted tyrranicide was justified.
4 (18.2%)
I don't know or care about WWII history.
1 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: November 12, 2017, 09:03:04 PM

Author Topic: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?  (Read 13123 times)

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Offline St Ignatius

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Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2017, 12:15:06 PM »
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  • For all those who despise Hitler for all the wrong reasons, I would highly recommend them to read this book...  



    Available to read online here...


    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #31 on: November 07, 2017, 12:31:03 PM »
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  • For all those who despise Hitler for all the wrong reasons, I would highly recommend them to read this book...  



    Available to read online here...
    :applause:
    Fantastic book that I'm reading again right now. Anything by Irving is top shelf. 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #32 on: November 07, 2017, 12:38:51 PM »
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  • My understanding is that Hitler was hated by all his generals and he was responsible for military policies that cost many German lives.  He was sleeping when D-Day got under way and everyone was afraid to wake him because he was such a vindictive bastard.  So they could not get authorization to move Panzer divisions into place.  He basically liquidated Rommel.  He was totally inept.  And yet he would not negotiate peace.  If ever there was cause to put down a rabid dog, this was it.  A Catholic bishop approved.  Stauffenberg may not be a hero but I believe he acted out of a love for his country.  I don't see how a successful assassination of Hitler would have done more harm to Germany than what Hitler did in the final year of the war.  Good riddance to that cowardly pervert.
    Hitler was not hated by all of his generals. That is false. He was not inept and made many military decisions based upon the advice of his military staff. Some he made unilaterally or with his close circle.
    Stauffenberg was at best disloyal. It was not for him to decide the military policy for his superiors but to carry them out or refuse to so according to his conscience
    Planting a bomb in a crowded tent of his countrymen was cowardly, and and not the act of a Catholic conscience, and their is also the issue of collaboration with the allies which would make him a traitor and place him in league with the Communists and Masons. That is who would have benefitted from Hitles death, and to the detriment of the German people.  The post war record attests to this with millions dying after the end of the war.
    There were over twenty peace proposals made by his government, both before and during the war.  One even included the offer to return to the pre-war boundaries. All were rejected by the Allies. the claim that he would not negotiate is not in accordance with the facts and therefore false.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #33 on: November 07, 2017, 12:43:54 PM »
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  • Irving's book is famous for its sympathetic view of Hitler.  I do not understand why Catholics are showing so much sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.  It's as if we had people telling us to think more positively about Nero and Diocletian.

    We can't just dismiss the accusations of persecution as propaganda.  We have this from the pope of the time.  There is no reason to question that the persecution happened.  Somehow, we have posters here who seem to think the persecution of Catholics was OK.


    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #34 on: November 07, 2017, 01:01:45 PM »
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  • Irving's book is famous for its sympathetic view of Hitler.  I do not understand why Catholics are showing so much sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.  It's as if we had people telling us to think more positively about Nero and Diocletian.

    We can't just dismiss the accusations of persecution as propaganda.  We have this from the pope of the time.  There is no reason to question that the persecution happened.  Somehow, we have posters here who seem to think the persecution of Catholics was OK.
    Have you read the book?
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #35 on: November 07, 2017, 01:06:59 PM »
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  • Have you read the book?
    No and I have no intention of doing so.  I have limited time available for reading and that is not something I want to use it on.

    Do you deny that the book is sympathetic to Hitler?  Unless I was wrong about that, my point still stands.  Catholics should not be fostering sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #36 on: November 07, 2017, 01:13:27 PM »
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  • Fiction:   A holy Catholic priest was walking in Berlin one day in the midst of the horrors of WW II when he was approached in the open by a group of fallen away and secretly and viciously anti-Catholic individuals who wanted to deceitfully gain testimony against him to be given to either Church authorities or to German government authorities depending on how the priest would reply.  "Oh, holy priest we beg of you to advise us in the midst of our confusion.  Is it lawful to support Hitler or should we follow our morally justifiable Catholic instincts and conspire to do away with him.  The holy priest sensing their wicked intrigues answered, "Render unto Hitler that which is owing to Hitler and to God that which is owing to God."

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #37 on: November 07, 2017, 01:23:58 PM »
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  • No and I have no intention of doing so.  I have limited time available for reading and that is not something I want to use it on.

    Do you deny that the book is sympathetic to Hitler?  Unless I was wrong about that, my point still stands.  Catholics should not be fostering sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.
    So you have no credibility in making your comments about the book. 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #38 on: November 07, 2017, 01:36:01 PM »
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  • So you have no credibility in making your comments about the book.
    I said that the book was famous for being sympathetic to Hitler.  This is something that a person could know without reading the book.  I did do the necessary research to discover the book's reputation and my comment was quite credible.

    If you have some evidence that the book's reputation is undeserved please present it.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #39 on: November 07, 2017, 01:40:54 PM »
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  • Irving's book is famous for its sympathetic view of Hitler.  I do not understand why Catholics are showing so much sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.  It's as if we had people telling us to think more positively about Nero and Diocletian.

    We can't just dismiss the accusations of persecution as propaganda.  We have this from the pope of the time.  There is no reason to question that the persecution happened.  Somehow, we have posters here who seem to think the persecution of Catholics was OK.
    Jaynek, it is sad to say but to those who hold distorted opinions of this historical period, anyone, who would give the National Socialists or Hitler a fair and objective hearing and accounting will be seen as being "sympathetic" to that which you have predetermined is a great evil. And this is done without consideration to all information which can be found and not a selective segment which paints a one dimensional assessment of these subjects. The Jєωs have labeled Irving as being sympathetic because he was honest about what he could confirm through his research. Regardless of that, he remains a sound and reliable historian in the bulk of his work.
    There were hundreds of thousands of Catholics who were incinerated in Germany, hundreds of Churches and convents reduced to rubble, tens of millions of Catholics who were murdered and starved in Ukraine.
    One needs to discern the proportion and intensity of persecution before declaring who it was thyat was truly the persecutor of Catholics at this time. It seemed to have escaped the Vatican's attention as well. 

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #40 on: November 07, 2017, 01:51:46 PM »
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  • Irving's book is famous for its sympathetic view of Hitler.  I do not understand why Catholics are showing so much sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.  It's as if we had people telling us to think more positively about Nero and Diocletian.

    We can't just dismiss the accusations of persecution as propaganda.  We have this from the pope of the time.  There is no reason to question that the persecution happened.  Somehow, we have posters here who seem to think the persecution of Catholics was OK.
    I think a much greater Catholic case for assassination if one was to be made would be for an assassination by a Russian national of Stalin.  That said, I would like to mention a book I purchased a few years back at -- get ready -- the SSPX seminary bookstore at Winona!  It's quite an amazing and highly docuмented book.  I am surprised there is not more publicity about it.  The blurb for the nearly 600 page book describes it simply as: "The writings and speeches of the Pope and the German hierarchy, the official decrees and instructions of the government, and the speeches and teachings of the nαzι Party."
    See
    [url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />[url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />[url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />[url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />[url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />[url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #41 on: November 07, 2017, 01:56:48 PM »
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  • Jaynek, it is sad to say but to those who hold distorted opinions of this historical period, anyone, who would give the National Socialists or Hitler a fair and objective hearing and accounting will be seen as being "sympathetic" to that which you have predetermined is a great evil.
    Premise 1: Source that I have a duty to believe (papal encyclical) says Hitler et al. persecuted the Church.

    Premise 2: Persecuting the Church is a great evil.

    Conclusion: Therefore I believe that Hitler & Co. committed a great evil.

    Most of the pro-Hitler arguments in this thread have been based on claiming that other people were worse or that Hitler did some good things too.  These are illogical and unconvincing.

    I would need to see evidence that Pius XI was wrong in his official teaching docuмent along with a good explanation of how he could be wrong.  Nobody has posted anything like that.  

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #42 on: November 07, 2017, 01:58:06 PM »
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  • Let's try again.  It came out just fine in my preview of same.

    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KwqlQ6pxL._SX313_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg[/img]

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #43 on: November 07, 2017, 02:01:36 PM »
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  • I think a much greater Catholic case for assassination if one was to be made would be for an assassination by a Russian national of Stalin.  That said, I would like to mention a book I purchased a few years back at -- get ready -- the SSPX seminary bookstore at Winona!  It's quite an amazing and highly docuмented book.  I am surprised there is not more publicity about it.  The blurb for the nearly 600 page book describes it simply as: "The writings and speeches of the Pope and the German hierarchy, the official decrees and instructions of the government, and the speeches and teachings of the nαzι Party."
    See
    [url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />[url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />[url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />[url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />[url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />[url=https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1589801377/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1589801377&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />
    I had a lot of trouble with the link.  In any event, the book which can be seen at Amazon is titled:
    The Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #44 on: November 07, 2017, 02:08:55 PM »
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  •  Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich, The Paperback – July 31, 2003

    • Paperback: 592 pages
    • Publisher: Pelican Publishing (July 31, 2003)
    • Language: English
    • ISBN-10: 1589801377
    • ISBN-13: 978-1589801370