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Poll

Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?

He was a traitor who tried to kill a great German leader.
7 (31.8%)
He was a Catholic hero who tried to save his country from the nαzιs.
10 (45.5%)
The attempted tyrranicide was justified.
4 (18.2%)
I don't know or care about WWII history.
1 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: November 12, 2017, 09:03:04 PM

Author Topic: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?  (Read 13126 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2017, 07:41:46 PM »
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  • The poll questions are all caddywhumpus anyway; at the very least they are unclear.

    Example: What does "great German leader" mean?

    The Antichrist, for example, will be a "great (x) leader".

    Then, contingent upon the above, can't someone be a non-traitor and try to kill a "great German leader"?

    Great leader? Great German? Great both? Okay, then what does/did it mean to be "German" and so, a great one?

    By what terms? Who set them?
    Okay,  nice puppy doggy... 

    Here's an easier one for you:

    Was Colonel Claus a good or bad guy ?     :farmer:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline GottmitunsAlex

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #16 on: November 06, 2017, 07:45:01 PM »
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  • I do not see how this is relevant.  There is no question that the Reich government persecuted Catholics and that it was considered an enemy of the Church.  The encyclical clearly says so.  

    Pius XI also explained in that encyclical that his concern not to make the situation worse for German Catholics meant that he could not be as blunt as he otherwise would have been.  Obviously, under such circuмstances, he was not going to single out powerful men by name for excommunication.

    The Reich government was evil.  No matter how much you approve of its actions against Jєωs and Communists, it was opposed to the Catholic Faith and oppressive to Catholic people.  I do not see how it is possible to be a good Catholic and give this government the amount of approval that you do.  

    You give no quarter to Jєωs because they are enemies of the Church.  Why then this double standard?  Why are you giving this other enemy of the Church a free pass?
    Germans were not enemies of the Church.  False dichotomy. The Church had enemies within. Especially in that time period when you had the new "Conversos". Fr. Gregory Baum is a prime example: MARRANOS.
    THOSE ARE THE TRUE ENEMIES.
    "As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise: The Jєωs have not recognized Our Lord; therefore we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people." -Pope St. Pius X

    "No Jєω adores God! Who say so?  The Son of God say so."


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 08:00:02 PM »
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  • Germans were not enemies of the Church.  False dichotomy. The Church had enemies within. Especially in that time period when you had the new "Conversos". Fr. Gregory Baum is a prime example: MARRANOS.
    THOSE ARE THE TRUE ENEMIES.
    I did not say that Germans were the enemies of the Church.  Nobody in this thread has said that.  Pius XI, however, said that the Reich government was the enemy of the Church. I accept his teaching.  So should you.

    It is reasonable enough to consider Gregory Baum an enemy of the Church considering all the bad influence he had.  However, no matter how bad he was, it does not make Mit brennender Sorge go away.  We can name any number of groups or individuals who could be considered enemies of the Church.  That will never be a good reason to say that the Reich government was not an enemy of the Church.

    For the record, my husband is of part German heritage. I have a daughter who is married to a German.  I have a son who is engaged to a German.  I even live in a German-settled area that was originally called Berlin.  I don't have any issues with Germans.  

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #18 on: November 06, 2017, 09:59:02 PM »
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  • My understanding is that Hitler was hated by all his generals and he was responsible for military policies that cost many German lives.  He was sleeping when D-Day got under way and everyone was afraid to wake him because he was such a vindictive bastard.  So they could not get authorization to move Panzer divisions into place.  He basically liquidated Rommel.  He was totally inept.  And yet he would not negotiate peace.  If ever there was cause to put down a rabid dog, this was it.  A Catholic bishop approved.  Stauffenberg may not be a hero but I believe he acted out of a love for his country.  I don't see how a successful assassination of Hitler would have done more harm to Germany than what Hitler did in the final year of the war.  Good riddance to that cowardly pervert.

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #19 on: November 06, 2017, 10:30:05 PM »
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  • My understanding is that Hitler was hated by all his generals and he was responsible for military policies that cost many German lives.  He was sleeping when D-Day got under way and everyone was afraid to wake him because he was such a vindictive bastard.  So they could not get authorization to move Panzer divisions into place.  He basically liquidated Rommel.  He was totally inept.  And yet he would not negotiate peace.  If ever there was cause to put down a rabid dog, this was it.  A Catholic bishop approved.  Stauffenberg may not be a hero but I believe he acted out of a love for his country.  I don't see how a successful assassination of Hitler would have done more harm to Germany than what Hitler did in the final year of the war.  Good riddance to that cowardly pervert.
    The world would've been a better place if Hitler were never born and the nαzι Party stopped dead in its tracks.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...


    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #20 on: November 07, 2017, 08:49:22 AM »
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  • It is amazing just how ingrained the Jєωιѕн narrative of WWII is in most western countries and particularly in Catholics. So many doped minds and lazy intellects. There has been so much doctored and false information put forth in this thread alone that it is staggering.

                    The Jєωs the victors, the world their victims.

    Let us face the fact, the Jєωs, Masonry, and the Communists won that war, and as a result, we have the world in which we live in today.  We are thouroughly immersed in the depravity sufferd by pre war Germany, the Church has been rendered ineffective by its true and ancient enemy, and the west is ruled by the decendents of Babylon.

    All things by the way, that the National socialists tried to destroy, but were themselves destroyed by the Devils from the east who our Lady warned would devour the world. Her words never heeded, the lessons never learned.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #21 on: November 07, 2017, 09:06:28 AM »
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  • It is amazing just how ingrained the Jєωιѕн narrative of WWII is in most western countries and particularly in Catholics. So many doped minds and lazy intellects. There has been so much doctored and false information put forth in this thread alone that it is staggering.
    Are you claiming that Mit brennender Sorge is "doctored and false information"?
    It is a papal encyclical written by the contemporary reigning pope.  I can think of no better guide to how we Catholics should view that time and place in history.

    And I do not understand your reference to "the Jєωιѕн narrative" influencing Catholics.  Nothing like that was going on in this thread.  Nobody said anything about Hitler being evil because he killed 6 million Jєωs.  I would be surprised if most posters in this thread even thought that.  I know that I am skeptical of the "h0Ɩ0cαųst industry."

    There is overwhelming evidence, some even from our own Pope, that Hitler tried to use the Church for his own ends and was a persecutor of Catholics.  It is not Jєωs who tell us that.  If anything, Jєωs downplay the sufferings of anyone else under Hitler.

    If you have some evidence that anything said in this thread was false, let's see it.  Your empty assertions are unpersuasive.

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #22 on: November 07, 2017, 09:27:57 AM »
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  • It is amazing just how ingrained the Jєωιѕн narrative of WWII is in most western countries and particularly in Catholics. So many doped minds and lazy intellects. There has been so much doctored and false information put forth in this thread alone that it is staggering.

                    The Jєωs the victors, the world their victims.

    Let us face the fact, the Jєωs, Masonry, and the Communists won that war, and as a result, we have the world in which we live in today.  We are thouroughly immersed in the depravity sufferd by pre war Germany, the Church has been rendered ineffective by its true and ancient enemy, and the west is ruled by the decendents of Babylon.

    All things by the way, that the National socialists tried to destroy, but were themselves destroyed by the Devils from the east who our Lady warned would devour the world. Her words never heeded, the lessons never learned.
    So you're basically endorsing nαzιsm.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...


    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #23 on: November 07, 2017, 10:01:44 AM »
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  • So you're basically endorsing nαzιsm.
    Case in point!

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #24 on: November 07, 2017, 10:19:11 AM »
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  • Still don't get your point, JPaul.  We're talking at a 100 ft level and you're at a "summary" 10,000 ft level.  Please apply your general point to the specific question at hand.

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #25 on: November 07, 2017, 11:12:55 AM »
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  • What political assassinations in world history, if any, have been morally justified via Catholic criteria and where can we find the Catholic commentary which sets out said justification for such and such assassinations?

    What is the Catholic criteria, if any, and where is it found which would justify political assassination of a nation's leader?


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #26 on: November 07, 2017, 11:28:30 AM »
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  • This poll thread was derailed since post #4. (Third reply)
    How does looking at the Church teaching regarding the Reich government derail the thread?  How else would we determine whether the assassination attempt was justified?

    It seems a lot more pertinent that posting pictures of German soldiers, which you apparently have no problem with.

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #27 on: November 07, 2017, 11:41:34 AM »
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  • The man was a traitor and was part of a British plot. He was flipped. 


    Hitler was a hero for Germany and ultimately Europe. Churchill was a damn traitor to his own people because he had Jєωιѕн puppet strings on him. That's how he came to power to begin with. 


    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #28 on: November 07, 2017, 11:46:02 AM »
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  • What political assassinations in world history, if any, have been morally justified via Catholic criteria and where can we find the Catholic commentary which sets out said justification for such and such assassinations?

    What is the Catholic criteria, if any, and where is it found which would justify political assassination of a nation's leader?
    The Catholic Encyclopedia has an article on the morality of tyrannicide that may shed some light on your questions: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15108a.htm

    tl;dr version:  theological opinion is split

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #29 on: November 07, 2017, 12:06:28 PM »
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  • Thank you much Jaynek!  The article is indeed quite helpful! I have pasted it below for the sake of convenience.

    Tyrannicide
    Help support New Advent and get the full contents of this website as an instant download. Includes the Catholic Encyclopedia, Church Fathers, Summa, Bible and more — all for only $19.99...
    Tyrannicide literally is the killing of a tyrant, and usually is taken to mean the killing of a tyrant by a private person for the common good. There are two classes of tyrants whose circuмstances are widely apart — tyrants by usurpation and tyrants by oppression. A tyrant by usurpation (tyrannus in titula) is one who unjustly displaces or attempts to displace the legitimate supreme ruler, and he can be considered in the act of usurpation or in subsequent peaceful possession of the supreme power. A tyrant by oppression (tyrannus in regimine) is a supreme ruler who uses his power arbitrarily and oppressively.

    Tyrant by usurpation
    While actually attacking the powers that be, a tyrant by usurpation is a traitor acting against the common weal, and, like any other criminal, may be put to death by legitimate authority. If possible, the legitimate authority must use the ordinary forms of law in condemning the tyrant to death, but if this is not possible, it can proceed informally and grant individuals a mandate to inflict the capital punishment. St. Thomas (In II Sent., d. XLIV, Q. ii, a. 2), Suarez (Def. fidei, VI, iv, 7), and the majority of authorized theologians say that private individuals have a tacit mandate from legitimate authority to kill the usurper when no other means of ridding the community of the tyrant are available. Some, however, e.g. Crolly (De justitia, III, 207), hold that an express mandate is needed before a private person can take on himself the office of executioner of the usurping tyrant. All authorities hold that a private individual as such, without an express or tacit mandate from authority, may not lawfully kill an usurper unless he is actually his unjust aggressor. Moreover, it sometimes happens that an usurper is accorded the rights of a belligerent, and then a private individual, who is a non-combatant, is excluded by international law from the category of those to whom authority is given to kill the tyrant (Crolly, loc. cit.).

    If an usurper has already established his rule and peacefully reigns, until the prescriptive period has run its course the legitimate ruler can lawfully expel him by force if he is able to do so, and can punish him with death for his offence. If, however, it is out of the legitimate ruler's power to re-establish his own authority, there is nothing for it but to acquiesce in the actual state of affairs and to refrain from merging the community in the miseries of useless warfare. In these circuмstances, subjects are bound to obey the just laws of the realm, and can lawfully take an oath of obedience to the de facto ruler, if the oath is not of such a nature as to acknowledge the legitimacy of the usurper's authority (cf. Brief of Pius VIII, 29 Sept., 1830). This teaching is altogether different from the view of those who put forward the doctrine of accomplished facts, as it has come to be called, and who maintain that the actual peaceful possessor of the ruling authority is also legitimate ruler. This is nothing more or less than the glorification of successful robbery.

    Tyrant by oppression
    Looking on a tyrant by oppression as a public enemy, many authorities claimed for his subjects the right of putting him to death in defence of the common good. Amongst these were John of Salisbury in the twelfth century (Polycraticus III, 15; IV, 1; VIII, 17), and John Parvus (Jehan Petit) in the fifteenth century. The Council of Constance (1415) condemned as contrary to faith and morals the following proposition:
    Quote
    "Any vassal or subject can lawfully and meritoriously kill, and ought to kill, any tyrant. He may even, for this purpose, avail himself of ambushes, and wily expressions of affection or of adulation, notwithstanding any oath or pact imposed upon him by the tyrant, and without waiting for the sentence or order of any judge." (Session XV)
    Subsequently a few Catholics defended, with many limitations and safeguards, the right of subjects to kill a tyrannical ruler. Foremost amongst these was the Spanish Jesuit Mariana. In his book, "De rege et regis institutione" (Toledo, 1599), he held that people ought to bear with a tyrant as long as possible, and to take action only when his oppression surpassed all bounds. They ought to come together and give him a warning; this being of no avail they ought to declare him a public enemy and put him to death. If no public judgment could be given, and if the people were unanimous, any subject might, if possible, kill him by open, but not by secret means. The book was dedicated to Philip III of Spain and was written at the request of his tutor Garcias de Loaysa, who afterwards became Bishop of Toledo. It was published at Toledo in the printing-office of Pedro Rodrigo, printer to the king, with the approbation of Pedro de Oñ, Provincial of the Mercedarians of Madrid, and with the permission of Stephen Hojeda, visitor of the Society of Jesus in the Province of Toledo (see JUAN MARIANA). Most unfairly the Jesuit Order has been blamed for the teaching of Mariana. As a matter of fact, Mariana stated that his teaching on tyrannicide was his personal opinion, and immediately on the publication of the book the Jesuit General Aquaviva ordered that it be corrected. He also on 6 July, 1610, forbade any member of the order to teach publicly or privately that it is lawful to attempt the life of a tyrant.

    Though Catholic doctrine condemns tyrannicide as opposed to the natural law, formerly great theologians of the Church like St. Thomas (II-II, Q. xlii, a.2), Suarez (Def. fidei, VI, iv, 15), and Bañez, O.P. (De justitia et jure, Q. lxiv, a. 3), permitted rebellion against oppressive rulers when the tyranny had become extreme and when no other means of safety were available. This merely carried to its logical conclusion the doctrine of the Middle Ages that the supreme ruling authority comes from God through the people for the public good. As the people immediately give sovereignty to the ruler, so the people can deprive him of his sovereignty when he has used his power oppressively. Many authorities, e.g. Suarez (Def. fiedei, VI, iv, 18), held that the State, but not private persons, could, if necessary, condemn the tyrant to death. In recent times Catholic authors, for the most part, deny that subjects have the right to rebel against and depose an unjust ruler, except in the case when the ruler was appointed under the condition that he would lose his power if he abused it. In proof of this teaching they appeal to the Syllabus of Pius IX, in which this proposition is condemned: "It is lawful to refuse obedience to legitimate princes, and even to rebel" (prop. 63). While denying the right of rebellion in the strict sense whose direct object is the deposition of the tyrannical ruler, many Catholic writers, such as Crolly, Cathrein, de Bie, Zigliara, admit the right of subjects not only to adopt an attitude of passive resistance against unjust laws but also in extreme cases to assume a state of active defensive resistance against the actual aggression of a legitimate, but oppressive ruler.

    Many of the Reformers were more or less in favour of tyrannicide. Luther held that the whole community could condemn the tyrant to death (Sämmtliche Werke", LXII, Frankfort-on-the-Main and Erlangen, 1854, 201, 206). Melanchthon said that the killing of a tyrant is the most agreeable offering that man can make to God (Corp. Ref., III, Halle, 1836, 1076). The Calvinist writer styled Junius Brutus held that individual subjects have no right to kill a legitimate tyrant, but that resistance must be authorized by a representative council of the people (Vindiciae contra Tyrannos, p. 45). John Knox affirmed that it was the duty of the nobility, judges, rulers, and people of England to condemn Queen Mary to death (Appellation).