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Offline Caraffa

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Videos, Paganism & Bible stories...try to debunk these
« on: September 23, 2009, 01:52:49 PM »
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  • Christianity and Rationalism

    By G. K. Chesterton

    My friend, Mr. George Haw, has asked me to state, in one or two articles, my general belief on the subject of Christianity, to be inserted in the Clarion. I will not pretend to any particlular reluctance to do so; but I ought not to do it without first of all offering to Mr. Blatchford our gratitude, and something which is better than gratitude, our congratulations, upon the very magnanimous action which he has taken in thus putting this paper into the hands of the religious opponents. In doing so he has scored, in a generous unconsciousness, a real point.

    Most of the awful revelations of Christian evil and ignorance do not, I am afraid, affect me in quite so serious a manner as they ought to. When I hear that a German professor has found the four-hundreth accurate origin of protoplasm, I try in vain to feel excitement; when I read that savages paint their faces green to please the ghosts (or what not), I have no feeling beyond a vague pleasure and sympathy. Both the German professor and the green-faced savage seem to me to be doing the same thing--that is, falling under the influence of that starry impulse which leads men to take a vast deal of trouble about quite useless things.

    But such things do not make much difference to my view of Christianity. In the whole of this controversy I have felt the force of one thing, which has really hit practical Christianity; I think it is a good argument; I think it is a terrible argument. It is not that this controversy is being conducted in a non-Christian paper. It certainly is a fair point scored against a religion that the people who seem to be most interested in it are those who believe it to be a fraud. I think, therefore, that Mr. Blatchford's magnanimity, like all magnanimity, is profoundly philosophical and wise.

    Nor do I blame him, as some have done, for having discussed it at great length; as the subject is the nature of the Universe, it is necessarily as large as the Universe, and as rich as the Universe, and I may add, as amusing as the Universe.

    In fact, I fancy there must be such a thing as Immortality, merely that Mr. Blatchford and I may have time to discuss whether it is true.

    Before I give an outline of my view, there is one other thing to be said in which I cannot avoid the personal note. I have begun to realise that there are a good many people to whom my way of speaking about these things appears like an indication that I am flippant or imperfectly sincere. Since, as a matter of fact, I am more certain of myself in this affair than I am of the existence of the moon, this naturally causes me some considerable regret; but I think I see the naturalness of the mistake and how it arose in people for removed from the Christian atmosphere. Christianity is itself so jolly a thing that it fills the possessor of it with a certain silly exuberance, which sad and high-minded Rationalists might reasonably mistake for mere buffoonery and blasphemy; just as their prototypes, the sad and high-minded Stoics of old Rome, did mistake the Christian joyousness for buffoonery and blasphemy.

    This difference holds good everywhere, in the cold Pagan architectrure and the grinning gargoyles of Christendom, in the preposterous motley of the Middle Ages and the dingy dress of this Rationlistic century. And if Mr. Blatchford wishes to know why we should be surprised if the Duke of Devonshire walked about with one leg red and the other yellow (as a nobleman might have done in the thirteenth century), I can obligingly inform him that it is because of the decay of our faith. Nowhere in history has there ever been any popular brightness and gaiety without religion.

    The first of all the difficulities that I have in controverting Mr. Blatchford is simply this, that I shall be very largely going over his own ground. My favourite text-book of theology is God and my Neighbour but I cannot repeat it in detail. If I gave each of my reasons for being a Christian, a vast number of them would be Mr. Blachford's reasons for not being one.

    For instance, Mr. Blatchford and his school point out that there are many myths parallel to the Christian story; that there were Pagan Christs, and Red Indian Incarnations, and Patagonian Crucifixions, for all I know or care. But does not Mr. Blatchford see the other side of this fact? If the Christian God really made the human race, would not the human race tend to rumours and perversions of the Christian God? If the center of our life is a certain fact, would not people far from the center have a muddled version of that fact? If we are so made that a Son of God must deliver us, is it odd that Patagonians should dream of a Son of God?

    The Blatchfordian position really amounts to this--that because a certain thing has impressed millions of different people as likely or necessary therefore is connot be true. And then this bashful being, veiling his own talents, convicts the wretched G.K.C. of paradox! I like paradox, but I am not prepared to dance and dazzle to the extent of Nunquam, who points to humanity crying out to a thing, and pointing to it from immemorial ages, as a proof that it cannot be there.

    The story of a Christ is very common in legend and literature. So is the story of two lovers parted by Fate. So is the story of two friends killing each other for a woman. But will it seriously be maintained that, because these two stories are common as legends, therefore not two friends were ever separated by love or no two lovers by circuмstances? It is tolerably plain, surely, that these two stories are common because the situation is an intensely probable and human one, because our nature is so built as to make them almost inevitable.

    Why should it not be that our nature is so built as to make certain spiritual events inevitable? In any case, it is clearly ridiculous to attempt to disprove Christianity by the number and variety of Pagan Christs. You might as well take the number and variety of ideal schemes of society, from Plato's Republic to Morris' News from Nowhere, from More's Utopia to Blatchford's Merrie England, and then try and prove from them that mankind cannot ever reach a better social condition. If anything, of course, they prove the opposite; they suggest a human tendency towards a better condition.

    Thus, in this first instance, when learned skeptics come to me and say, "Are you aware that the Kaffirs have a story of Incarnation?" I should reply: "Speaking as an unlearned person, I don't know. But speaking as a Christian, I should be very much astonished if they hadn't."


    Take a second instance. The Secularist says that Christianity has been a gloomy and ascetic thing, and points to the procession of austere or ferocious saints who have given up home and happiness and macerated health and sex. But it never seems to occur to him that the very oddity and completeness of the men's surrender make it look very much as if there were really something actual and solid in the thing for which they sold themselves. They gave up all human experiences for the sake on one superhuman experience. They may have been wicked, but it looks as if there were such an experience.

    It is perfectly tenable that this experience is as dangerous and selfish a thing as drink. A man who goes ragged and homeless in order to see visions may be as repellent and immoral as a man who goes ragged and homeless in order to drink brandy. That is a quite reasonable position. But what is manifestly not a reasonable position what would be, in fact not far from being an insane position, would be to say that the raggedness of the man, and the homelessness of the man, and the stupefied degradation of the man proved that there was no such thing as brandy.

    That is precisely what the Secularist tries to say. He tries to prove that there is no such think as supernatural experience by pointing at the people who have given up everything for it. He tries to prove that there is no such thing by proving that there are people who live on nothing else.

    Again I may submissively ask: "Whose is the paradox?" The frantic severity of these men may, of course, show that they were eccentric people who loved unhappiness for its own sake. But is seems more in accordance with commonsense to suppose that they had really found the secret of some actual power or experience which was, like wine, a terrible consolation and a lonely joy.

    Thus, then, in the second instance, when the learned sceptic says to me: "Christian saints gave up love and liberty for this one rapture of Christianity, I should have been surprised if they hadn't."

    Take a third instance. The Secularist says that Christianity produced tumult and cruelty. He seems to suppose that this proves it to be bad. But it might prove it to be very good. For men commit crimes not only for bad things, far more often for good things. For no bad things can be desired quite so passionately and persistently as good things can be desired and only very exceptional men desire very bad and unnatural things.

    Most crime is committed because, owing to some peculiar complication, very beautiful or necessary things are in some danger. For instance, if we wanted to abolish thieving and swindling at one blow, the best thing to do would be to abolish babies. Babies, the most beautiful things on earth, have been the excuse and origin of almost all the business of brutality and financial infamy on earth.

    If we could abolish monogamic or romantic love, again the country would be dotted with Maiden Assizes. And if anywhere in history masses of common and kindly men become cruel it almost certainly does not mean that they are serving something in itself tyrannical (for why should they?). It almost certainly does mean that something that they rightly value is in peril such as the food of their children, the chasity of their women, or the independence of their country. And when something is set before them that is not only enormously valuable, but also quite new, the sudden vision, the chance of winning it, the chance of losing it, drive them mad. It has the same effect in the moral world that the finding of gold has in the economic world. It upsets values, and creates a kind of cruel rush.

    We need not go far for instances quite apart from the instances of religion. When the modern doctrines of brotherhood and liberty were preached in France in the eighteenth century the time was ripe for them, the educated classes everywhere had been growing towards them, the world to a very considerable extend welcomed them. And yet all that preparation and openness were unable to prevent the burst of anger and agony which greets anything good. And if the slow and polite preaching of rational fraternity in a rational age ended in the massacres of September, what an a fortiori is here! What would be likely to be the effect of the sudden dropping into a dreadfully evil century of a dreadfully perfect truth? What would happen if a world baser than the world of Sade were confronted with a gospel purer than the gospel of Rousseau?

    The mere flinging of the polished pebble of Republican Indealism into the artificial lake of eighteenth century Europe produced a splash that seemed to splash the heavens, and a storm that drowned ten thousand men. What would happen if a star from heaven really fell into the slimy and bloody pool of a hopless and decaying humanity? Men swept a city with the guillotine, a continent with the sabre, because Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity were too precious to be lost. How if Christianity was yet more maddening because it was yet more precious?

    But why should we labour the point when One who knew human nature as it can really be learnt, from fishermen and women and natural people, saw from his quiet village the track of this truth across history, and, in saying that He came to bring not peace but a sword, set up eternally His colossal realism against the eternal sentimentality of the Secularist?

    Thus, then, in the third instance, when the learned sceptic says: "Christianiaity produced wars and persecutions," we shall reply: "Naturally."

    And, lastly, let me take an example which leads me on directly to the general matter I wish to discuss for the remining space of the articles at my command. The Secularist constantly points out that the Hebrew and Christian religions began as local things; that their god was a tribal god; that they gave him material form, and attached him to particular places.

    This is an excellent example of one of the things that if I were conducting a detailed campaign I should use as an argument for the validity of Biblical experience. For if there really are some other and higher beings than ourselves, and if they in some strange ways, at some emotional crisis, really revealed themselves to rude poets or dreamers in very simple times, that the rude people should regard the revelation as local, and connect it with the particular hill or river where it happened, seems to me exactly what any reasonable human being would expect. It has a far more credible look than if they had talked cosmic philosophy from the beginning. If they had, I should have suspected "priestcraft" and forgeries and third-century Gnosticism

    If there be such a being as God, and He can speak to a child, and if God spoke to a child in the garden the child would, of course, say that God lived in the garden. I should not think it any less likely to be true for that. If the child said: "God is everywhere: an impalpable essence pervading and supporting all constituents of the Cosmos alike"--if, I say, the infant addressed me in the above terms, I should think he was mouch more likely to have been with the governess than with God.

    So if Moses had said God was an Infinite Energy, I should be certain he had seen nothing extraordinary. As he said He(God) was a Burning Bush, I think it very likely that he did see something extraordinary. For whatever be the Divine Secret, and whether or no it has (as all people have believed) sometimes broken bounds and surged into our work, at least it lies on the side furthest away from pedants and their definitions, and nearest to the silver souls of quiet people, to the beauty of bushes, and the love of one's native place.

    Thus, then in our last instance (out of hundreds that might be taken), we conclude in the same way. When the learned sceptic says: "The visions of the Old Testament were local, and rustic, and grotesque," we shall answer: "Of course. They were genuine."

    Thus, as I said at the beginning, I find myself, to start with, face to face with the difficulty that to mention the reasons that I have for believing in Christianity is, in very many cases, to repeat those arguments which Mr. Blatchford, in some strange way, seems to regard as arguments against it. His book is really rich and powerful. He has undoubtedly set up these four great guns of which I have spoken. I have nothing to say against the size and ammunition of the guns. I only say that by some accident of arrangement he has set up those four pieces of artillery with the tails pointing at me and the mouths pointing at himself. If I were not so humane, I should say: "Gentlemen of the Secularist Guard, fire first."

    But there is more to be said. Mr. Blatchford, for some reason or other (possibly want of space), has neglected to urge all the arguments for Christianity. And, oddly enough, the two or three arguments he has omitted to state are the really vital and essential ones. Without them, even the excellent four facts which he and I have respectively explained may apprear superficially unitelligible.

    Why will many of you not accept my four explanations? Obviously, in mere logic, they are as logical as Mr. Blatchford's. It is as reasonable, in the abstract, that a truth should be distorted as that a lie should be distorted; it is as reasonable, in the abstract, that men should starve and sin for a real benefit as for an unreal one. You will not believe it because you are armed to the teeth, and buttoned up to the chin with the great Agnostic Orthodoxy, perhaps the most placid and perfect of all the orthodoxies of mean. You could sooner believe that Socrates was a Government spy than believe that he heard a voice from his God. You could more easily think that Christ murdered His mother, than that He had a psychic energy of which we know nothing. I approach you with the reverence and the courage due to a bench of bishops.
    Pray for me, always.


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #1 on: September 23, 2009, 04:13:08 PM »
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  • Anytime someone posts Chesterton here I am going to launch into an attack on this blithering gibbering smug and self-satisfied jolly old English lover of the French Revolution, who is not the spokesman for the Catholic religion as I know it, that's for sure.  This guy can't open his mouth without making ten thousand bizarre errors that show he was a rebel in Catholic's clothing.  

    Here he is indulging in a rigged argument against one "Blatchford" and positioning himself as the voice of orthodoxy, a claim that, sadly, many people take at face value.  

    G.K. Chesterton said:

    Quote
    "Christianity is itself so jolly a thing that it fills the possessor of it with a certain silly exuberance, which sad and high-minded Rationalists might reasonably mistake for mere buffoonery and blasphemy."


    Jesus Christ, apparently having more in common with the "sad and high-minded rationalist" than He did with G.K. Chesterton, said:

    Quote
    And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.


    Jesus Christ also said:
    Quote

    "Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the charity of the Father is not in him."


    Pretty jolly, huh?

    G.K. Chesterton said
    :

    Quote
    "When I read that savages paint their faces green to please the ghosts (or what not), I have no feeling beyond a vague pleasure and sympathy."


    JPII said:



    G.K. Chesterton said:

    Quote
    Nor do I blame him, as some have done, for having discussed it at great length; as the subject is the nature of the Universe, it is necessarily as large as the Universe, and as rich as the Universe, and I may add, as amusing as the Universe."


    When have you ever heard a Catholic saint describe the universe as "amusing"?  

    G.K. Chesterton said
    :
    Quote

    Take a second instance. The Secularist says that Christianity has been a gloomy and ascetic thing, and points to the procession of austere or ferocious saints who have given up home and happiness and macerated health and sex. But it never seems to occur to him that the very oddity and completeness of the men's surrender make it look very much as if there were really something actual and solid in the thing for which they sold themselves. They gave up all human experiences for the sake on one superhuman experience. They may have been wicked, but it looks as if there were such an experience."


    Did you get that?  He suggested the SAINTS who led austere and "ferocious" lives were wicked.  He acts as if this were a common charge against them by "Secularists" and that there might even be some truth to it.  No, the common charge is that many in the Church are wicked, not that the saints are wicked.  That is why they are SAINTS.  I think being canonized automatically exempts you from that charge.

    Quote
    Take a third instance. The Secularist says that Christianity produced tumult and cruelty. He seems to suppose that this proves it to be bad. But it might prove it to be very good. For men commit crimes not only for bad things, far more often for good things. For no bad things can be desired quite so passionately and persistently as good things can be desired and only very exceptional men desire very bad and unnatural things.


    Here he says that Christians committed "crimes" to aid the Church and that crime is justified if it's for that reason.  Crimes?!  Maintaining law and order, suppressing heretics, fighting just wars, or whatever he may be suggesting, are not crimes but JUSTICE.  The Church is indefectible.  The worst that can be said of the Church is that certain of Her members have at times imperfectly decided on what would constitute good actions, based on their own frailty and selfishness and refusal to follow God's will.  But the Church itself is a perfect society and is certainly not founded on "crimes"!

    Oh, but wait!  It turns out the jolly Englishman ( I wonder how jolly he feels now, whereever he might be? ) is only gearing up for his real purpose, which is to compare the aims of the Church, which he calls "crimes," to the atrocities of the French Revolution, slipping the poisonous lie into the minds of his readers that both the Church and the Revolutionaries broke the law for the greater good.

    The Revolution of course was event that even "Secularists" say had a Satanic aura, and that was directly aimed against the Church itself, with a prostitute being enthroned on an altar, and priests who wouldn't go along with the revolution being persecuted and killed.  

    From Wikipedia:

    Quote
    The programme of dechristianisation waged against Catholicism, and eventually against all forms of Christianity, included[1][3][4]:

        * removal of statues, plates and other iconography from places of worship
        * destruction of crosses, bells and other external signs of worship
        * the institution of revolutionary and civic cults, including the Cult of Reason and subsequently the Cult of the Supreme Being,
        * the enactment of a law on October 21, 1793 making all nonjuring priests and all persons who harboured them liable to death on sight.

    The climax was reached with the celebration of the Goddess "Reason" in Notre Dame Cathedral on 10 November, 1793.



    I should have known he'd get around to this.  Watch this spokesman of "orthodoxy" drop the mask and show the leering demonic face beneath...

    Quote
    We need not go far for instances quite apart from the instances of religion. When the modern doctrines of brotherhood and liberty were preached in France in the eighteenth century the time was ripe for them, the educated classes everywhere had been growing towards them, the world to a very considerable extend welcomed them. And yet all that preparation and openness were unable to prevent the burst of anger and agony which greets anything good. And if the slow and polite preaching of rational fraternity in a rational age ended in the massacres of September, what an a fortiori is here!"


    You see, the Church committed "crimes" for the greater good, and so did the Revolutionaries, who had good intentions but just got a bit carried away.  He continues:

    Quote

    Men swept a city with the guillotine, a continent with the sabre, because Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity were too precious to be lost. How if Christianity was yet more maddening because it was yet more precious?


    Unmistakably, he tries to yoke Catholicism together with the ideals of the Revolution.  This is the aim of Vatican II, so it is not surprising he praised the "modern doctrines" of the Revolution, because he was a crypto-Modernist.  The true Church always condemned the Revolution in the strongest terms, but Ratzinger had other ideas, ideas precisely like those of Chesterton.

    From Ratzinger's Principles of Catholic Theology

    Quote
    "The one-sidedness of the position adopted by the Church under Pius IX and Pius X in response to the situation created by the new phase of history inaugurated by the French Revolution was, to a large extent, corrected via facti, especially in Central Europe, but there was still no basic statement of the relationship that should exist between the Church and the world that had come into existence after 1789...

    "Let us be content to say here that the text [of the Vatican II docuмents, especially Gaudium et Spes] serves as a counter syllabus and, as such, represents, on the part of the Church, an attempt at an official reconciliation with the new era inaugurated in 1789." (2)"


    Do you want to know the real irony of all this?  THE FRENCH REVOLUTION WAS THE GREATEST TRIUMPH OF THE RATIONALISTS, YET CHESTERTON DEFENDS IT AND SAYS HE IS AGAINST RATIONALISM.

    From the Fleur de Lys website:

    Quote
    "Forerunners of the French Revoloution, part 3c
    Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ

    The Rationalists had rejected all belief in the Supernatural Life of Grace merited for us by Our Divine Lord on Calvary and communicated to the world through the Catholic Church. They had built up a new concept of human life and destiny directly opposed to Christian ideals. To put this new plan of life into action it was necessary that the Catholic Church and her power over men should be overthrown. To achieve this purpose a new satanic force appears in the world: the Secret Society known as Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, the parent and controlling authority of the lesser secret and semi-secret societies of modern times.


    How is it possible that Chesterton darkly whispered about Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ yet at the same time espoused its ideals?  Was this an "accident"?  Funny how the 20th century was rife with these "accidents."
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #2 on: September 23, 2009, 04:14:31 PM »
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  • Oh, but the part about how pagan religions have their own Christ figures, and how this does not suffice to disprove the existence of Christ as the Son of God, was not so bad.

    That's why I say "truth mixed with lies."
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 04:57:20 PM »
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  • Do those citing words written ten, and in some cases, twenty years before GKC entered the Church, know much about his life AS A WHOLE, and the time line, circuмstances, etc., of his movement from agnostic to Catholic?

    Was he perfect at any point during his life?  It would appear not.

    The twisting of his meaning about the Faith being a jolly thing (after all, the truth does set a man FREE) comes off, for better or worse, as disingenuous.  I do NOT believe it is, but that strongly opposed temperaments are, even though one of them is long dead, rubbing each other the wrong way.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 05:00:11 PM »
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  • For those who seek to know the man's thought, kindly read The Ballad of the White Horse before throwing him completely under the double-decker bus.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 05:06:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Uriel
    There are just too many common elements that lead one to see that many of the Bible stories ( Noah, the virgin birth, ten commandents written on stone...) are borrowed from older pagan myths.


    While you wonder about the origins of the Bible, your propensity to present us with rather absurd crap-o-la from time to time makes me wonder about your "origins", not those of Holy Writ.

    It is especially odd that Raoul76 bags on Chesterton for some comments he made about the Saints (was he even Catholic at the time?) in a thread started by someone who has blown us away with zingers such as the apparently diabolical origin of the visions of St. Mary Magdalen, who is, after all, NOT A SAINT!

    Michael,

    Have you seen or paid attention to the complete bullsh*t that has been posted somewhat regularly by Uriel?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 05:09:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Uriel
    I do not want to start a fight but would like anyone to try to debunk these claims.


    If you are genuine in any way, get off your ass, purchase Glenn's Apologetics, and get back to us with any more questions after you have read it - THRICE.

    Yes, I am being hard, just as I was with Maria-Bernada.  My reasons, then and now, are the same - there is something fraudulent (over-the-top bogus) about Uriel.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Caraffa

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    « Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 05:29:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Anytime someone posts Chesterton here I am going to launch into an attack on this blithering gibbering smug and self-satisfied jolly old English lover of the French Revolution, who is not the spokesman for the Catholic religion as I know it, that's for sure.  This guy can't open his mouth without making ten thousand bizarre errors that show he was a rebel in Catholic's clothing.
     

    Chesterton was not a rebel in Catholic clothing. If you want to critique for being a bit too Protestant here and there I can understand, since others have raised those objections.

    Chesterton was an apologist, not a St Francis de Sales or a St Louis De Monfort.

    Quote
    Here he is indulging in a rigged argument against one "Blatchford" and positioning himself as the voice of orthodoxy, a claim that, sadly, many people take at face value.  

    G.K. Chesterton said:

    Quote
    "Christianity is itself so jolly a thing that it fills the possessor of it with a certain silly exuberance, which sad and high-minded Rationalists might reasonably mistake for mere buffoonery and blasphemy."


    Jesus Christ, apparently having more in common with the "sad and high-minded rationalist" than He did with G.K. Chesterton, said:

    Quote
    And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.


    What is wrong with having joy. Joy should be had with preferably other Traditional Catholics of decent virtue. Having joy and caring one's cross are not mutually exclusive. Can we carry it alone? No, we need others like us to help us. You would have done better to critique what Chesterton said in line after this one as many Catholics have has no problem with stoicism.


    Quote
    G.K. Chesterton said[/b]:

    Quote
    "When I read that savages paint their faces green to please the ghosts (or what not), I have no feeling beyond a vague pleasure and sympathy."


    JPII said:



    You're failing to contextualize reason Raoul. Equivalating JPII's kumbaya sessions with spiritists is not not the same as what Chesterton is saying. He is attacking the rationalist for his lack of belief in the mystical while being satirical. He is not giving honor to these false Gods.

    Quote
    G.K. Chesterton said:


    Quote
    Take a second instance. The Secularist says that Christianity has been a gloomy and ascetic thing, and points to the procession of austere or ferocious saints who have given up home and happiness and macerated health and sex. But it never seems to occur to him that the very oddity and completeness of the men's surrender make it look very much as if there were really something actual and solid in the thing for which they sold themselves. They gave up all human experiences for the sake on one superhuman experience. They may have been wicked, but it looks as if there were such an experience."


    Did you get that?  He suggested the SAINTS who led austere and "ferocious" lives were wicked.  He acts as if this were a common charge against them by "Secularists" and that there might even be some truth to it.  No, the common charge is that many in the Church are wicked, not that the saints are wicked.  That is why they are SAINTS.  I think being canonized automatically exempts you from that charge.


    Sure, there is truth that Saints were "wicked" (I personally wouldn't use the term either). but that is why we honor them. They are something we should be striving to be.

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    Take a third instance. The Secularist says that Christianity produced tumult and cruelty. He seems to suppose that this proves it to be bad. But it might prove it to be very good. For men commit crimes not only for bad things, far more often for good things. For no bad things can be desired quite so passionately and persistently as good things can be desired and only very exceptional men desire very bad and unnatural things.


    Here he says that Christians committed "crimes" to aid the Church and that crime is justified if it's for that reason.  Crimes?!  Maintaining law and order, suppressing heretics, fighting just wars, or whatever he may be suggesting, are not crimes but JUSTICE.  The Church is indefectible.  The worst that can be said of the Church is that certain of Her members have at times imperfectly decided on what would constitute good actions, based on their own frailty and selfishness and refusal to follow God's will.  But the Church itself is a perfect society and is certainly not founded on "crimes"!


    He is referring back to what the secularist calls crimes. The Inquisition to the secularists is a crime, but to us it was a great thing that unfortunately lost steam. Even some Catholics try to dumb down the impact it had.

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    Oh, but wait!  It turns out the jolly Englishman ( I wonder how jolly he feels now, whereever he might be? ) is only gearing up for his real purpose, which is to compare the aims of the Church, which he calls "crimes," to the atrocities of the French Revolution, slipping the poisonous lie into the minds of his readers that both the Church and the Revolutionaries broke the law for the greater good.

    The Revolution of course was event that even "Secularists" say had a Satanic aura, and that was directly aimed against the Church itself, with a prostitute being enthroned on an altar, and priests who wouldn't go along with the revolution being persecuted and killed.  

    From Wikipedia:

    Quote
    The programme of dechristianisation waged against Catholicism, and eventually against all forms of Christianity, included[1][3][4]:

        * removal of statues, plates and other iconography from places of worship
        * destruction of crosses, bells and other external signs of worship
        * the institution of revolutionary and civic cults, including the Cult of Reason and subsequently the Cult of the Supreme Being,
        * the enactment of a law on October 21, 1793 making all nonjuring priests and all persons who harboured them liable to death on sight.

    The climax was reached with the celebration of the Goddess "Reason" in Notre Dame Cathedral on 10 November, 1793.



    I should have known he'd get around to this.  Watch this spokesman of "orthodoxy" drop the mask and show the leering demonic face beneath...

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    We need not go far for instances quite apart from the instances of religion. When the modern doctrines of brotherhood and liberty were preached in France in the eighteenth century the time was ripe for them, the educated classes everywhere had been growing towards them, the world to a very considerable extend welcomed them. And yet all that preparation and openness were unable to prevent the burst of anger and agony which greets anything good. And if the slow and polite preaching of rational fraternity in a rational age ended in the massacres of September, what an a fortiori is here!"


    You see, the Church committed "crimes" for the greater good, and so did the Revolutionaries, who had good intentions but just got a bit carried away.  He continues:

    Quote

    Men swept a city with the guillotine, a continent with the sabre, because Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity were too precious to be lost. How if Christianity was yet more maddening because it was yet more precious?


    Maybe, I missing your point, but he seems to be critique the French Revolution. Notice, he says men and not God.

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    Unmistakably, he tries to yoke Catholicism together with the ideals of the Revolution.  This is the aim of Vatican II, so it is not surprising he praised the "modern doctrines" of the Revolution, because he was a crypto-Modernist.  The true Church always condemned the Revolution in the strongest terms, but Ratzinger had other ideas, ideas precisely like those of Chesterton.

    From Ratzinger's Principles of Catholic Theology

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    "The one-sidedness of the position adopted by the Church under Pius IX and Pius X in response to the situation created by the new phase of history inaugurated by the French Revolution was, to a large extent, corrected via facti, especially in Central Europe, but there was still no basic statement of the relationship that should exist between the Church and the world that had come into existence after 1789...

    "Let us be content to say here that the text [of the Vatican II docuмents, especially Gaudium et Spes] serves as a counter syllabus and, as such, represents, on the part of the Church, an attempt at an official reconciliation with the new era inaugurated in 1789." (2)"


    Do you want to know the real irony of all this?  THE FRENCH REVOLUTION WAS THE GREATEST TRIUMPH OF THE RATIONALISTS, YET CHESTERTON DEFENDS IT AND SAYS HE IS AGAINST RATIONALISM.

    From the Fleur de Lys website:

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    "Forerunners of the French Revoloution, part 3c
    Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ

    The Rationalists had rejected all belief in the Supernatural Life of Grace merited for us by Our Divine Lord on Calvary and communicated to the world through the Catholic Church. They had built up a new concept of human life and destiny directly opposed to Christian ideals. To put this new plan of life into action it was necessary that the Catholic Church and her power over men should be overthrown. To achieve this purpose a new satanic force appears in the world: the Secret Society known as Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, the parent and controlling authority of the lesser secret and semi-secret societies of modern times.


    How is it possible that Chesterton darkly whispered about Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ yet at the same time espoused its ideals?  Was this an "accident"?  Funny how the 20th century was rife with these "accidents."


    Raoul, no one here disagrees with you that the French Revolution was bad and if Chesterton and Belloc did defend it than they were wrong. But just because person A is wrong on point A, does not mean they are wrong on point B. This is known as "spoiling the well." It may hurt there credibility and cause you to question them, but it does not destroy their argument.



    Pray for me, always.


    Offline Dylan

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    Videos, Paganism & Bible stories...try to debunk these
    « Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 06:20:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Uriel
    First off I am having some serious doughts about the whole origions of the Bible and those that are mentioned within it. There are just too many common elements that lead one to see that many of the Bible stories ( Noah, the virgin birth, ten commandents written on stone...) are borrowed from older pagan myths. The differnt stories, pagan and Christian, are not exactly the same but the over all themes and most of the contents are identical...

    I do not want to start a fight but would like anyone to try to debunk these claims.

    http://www.youtube.com/v/UYJNZ2GqyO0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Paganism#Pagan_Influences_on_Christianity





    These claims have been debunked numerous times, even by some non-Christians.

    Here are some sites that debunk "Zeitgeist" and any other associated propagandists of these claims:

    http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html
    http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html
    http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Home.html
    http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/component/option,com_weblinks/catid,2/Itemid,27/
    http://www.preventingtruthdecay.org/copycats.shtml
    http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html
    http://www.zeitgeistresponse.info/

    Offline Caraffa

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    Videos, Paganism & Bible stories...try to debunk these
    « Reply #9 on: September 23, 2009, 06:30:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Uriel
    Get back on track...try to disapprove these videos. That is all I ask. Not the man or men that put them together. So far there is no debunking them. Are there no hard facts discrediting these numerous similarities...often exact stories or very close to the same. Seems odd that these are not know amongst many Catholics let alone discussed.

    I see this issue not so much about one's faith, though it can put questions into one's mind concerning the true nature of religion(s), but more so ancient about history and how it was recorded...for whatever reasons right or wrong.


    1. Horus' birthday was in August, not December.
    2. There were no three Kings in the Horus' story
    3. There was no "Baptism" in Egypt at this time.
    4. In the context of Polytheism, such titles such as Lamb of God or God's anointed son do not make sense.
    5. Horus was not crucified.

    The Isis=Mary connection was probably taken form "Restorationist" Protestants. Isis was not likely a Virgin when she conceived Horus.

    Pray for me, always.

    Offline Caraffa

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    « Reply #10 on: September 23, 2009, 06:33:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Do those citing words written ten, and in some cases, twenty years before GKC entered the Church, know much about his life AS A WHOLE, and the time line, circuмstances, etc., of his movement from agnostic to Catholic?


    Good point GV. Most of Chesterton's writings were before his conversion in 1922.
    Pray for me, always.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #11 on: September 23, 2009, 06:40:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Uriel
    Get back on track...try to disapprove these videos.


    Quit evading: go do your own work.  I have read numerous things that blow such 'arguments' away and my capacity to communicate what I know to others is more than sufficient to get the job done.  That said, you are disingenuous.  If you are sincere, you will do the work yourself.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #12 on: September 23, 2009, 06:48:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Uriel
    I see this issue not so much about one's faith...


    Yet, you are having serious doubts ("doughts"???) about the origins of the Bible?

    HeL-Lo-O, McFly!  You are either a troll, an idiot or notably imbalanced (neither of which is a crime).

    As for being "on track", I am on it like white on rice, mate.  You have served up some wild sh*t in your time here and given plenty of evidence that your "faith" is rather lacking as far as supernatural motive and/or object.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #13 on: September 23, 2009, 06:49:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Uriel
    First off I am having some serious doughts about the whole origions of the Bible and those that are mentioned within it. There are just too many common elements that lead one to see that many of the Bible stories are borrowed from older pagan myths.


    Ah, but it is not really about faith? RIGHT!
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #14 on: September 24, 2009, 12:48:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Uriel
    My faith, on the other hand, has been up in the air long before these videos found their way to me.


    See, it is not that hard to shoot straight.  Btw, watching such crap is NOT the way to solidify your faith.  One way, which I already told you, is to go buy and read a book like Apologetics by Msgr. Glenn (you will find it here for ten bucks or so - http://www.tanbooks.com ).  If you ARE of good will, you will get past the embarrassment of this incident, buy the book, and read it like a thirsty man drinks a tall glass of water.

    Quote
    Gladius, you need to take a chill pill.


    No, you need to drop all pretense, shooting straight from the start any time you post.

    You may not yet realize it or be able to say it openly, but I am your friend - likely one of the few you have.  Godspeed, my friend.  Although you may never find the sense to thank me, you are welcome.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."