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Offline Cristera

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Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
« on: September 14, 2011, 08:09:01 AM »
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  • Catholic News Service

    Quote
    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign

    By Cindy Wooden
    Catholic News Service

    VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The Vatican has given the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X a formal "doctrinal preamble" listing several principles they must agree with in order to move toward full reconciliation with church.

    U.S. Cardinal William J. Levada, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gave the statement to Bishop Bernard Fellay, head of the society, Sept. 14 during a meeting at the Vatican that lasted more than two hours.

    Although the Vatican did not give the society a deadline, in order to move toward full reconciliation, leaders are expected to study and sign the preamble "within a few months," said Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, Vatican spokesman.

    The cardinal and bishop also discussed possible "elements of a canonical solution" for the society after "the eventual and hoped-for reconciliation," said a statement issued by the Vatican after the meeting.

    Father Lombardi said, "Today the most likely solution would be a personal prelature," which is a church jurisdiction without geographical boundaries designed to carry out particular pastoral initiatives. It is headed by a prelate, who is appointed by the pope; currently the church's only personal prelature is Opus Dei.

    The document given to Bishop Fellay to sign "states some doctrinal principles and criteria for the interpretation of Catholic doctrine necessary to guarantee fidelity" to the formal teaching of the church, said a statement issued by the Vatican after the meeting.

    At the same time, the statement said, the preamble leaves room for "legitimate discussion" about "individual expressions or formulations present in the documents of the Second Vatican Council and the successive magisterium" of the popes who came after the council.

    Father Lombardi would not respond to questions about specific church teachings and developments listed in the preamble, but said church tradition always has held there are varying degrees of church teaching; some require an absolute assent while others are open to interpretation.

    The talks were launched in late 2009 in an effort by Pope Benedict XVI to repair a 21-year break with the society. The pope said that full communion for the group's members would depend on "true recognition of the magisterium and the authority of the pope and of the Second Vatican Council."

    The Vatican statement did not mention any of the specific areas where Bishop Fellay's group has said the Catholic Church and the popes since the Second Vatican Council had broken with true Catholic tradition. They object to the reform of the Mass, to much of the church's work in ecumenical and interreligious dialogue, and to the council's stand on religious freedom.

    Bishop Fellay had said his society went into the talks aiming to show the contradictions between the church's traditional teachings and its practices since Vatican II. That is "the only goal that we are pursuing," he had said, adding that the dialogue with the Vatican is not a search for compromise but "a question of faith."

    In addition to the society's rejection of many Vatican II teachings, members also objected to the beatification of Pope John Paul II and, particularly, to Pope Benedict's convocation of another interreligious meeting for peace in Assisi.

    Pope Benedict cleared the way for reconciliation talks with the Society of St. Pius X in early 2009 when he lifted the excommunications of Bishop Fellay and three other society bishops ordained against papal orders in 1988. The Vatican said the dialogue was designed to restore "full communion" with members of the society, which was founded by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.

    The Vatican said the talks were to focus on the concept of tradition, liturgical reform, interpretation of Vatican II in continuity with Catholic doctrinal tradition, church unity, ecumenism, the relationship between Christianity and non-Christian religions, and religious freedom.

    The Vatican and the society appointed a commission to discuss the issues and members met eight times between October 2009 and April 2011, the Vatican said.

    The meetings "reached the aim of clarifying the respective positions" of the two sides, it said.

    MORE TO COME


    Offline Cristera

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #1 on: September 14, 2011, 08:17:48 AM »
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  • rorate caeli

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    On September 14, 2011, at the office of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a meeting was held between His Eminence, Cardinal William Levada, Prefect of this Congregation and President of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, His Excellency, Archbishop Luis Ladaria, S.J., Secretary of this Congregation, and Monsignor Guido Pozzo, Secretary of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, and His Excellency, Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X, and Fathers Niklaus Pfluger et Alain-Marc Nély, General Assistants of the Fraternity


     

    Following the petition addressed on December 15, 2008, by the Superior General of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X to His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI, the Holy Father had taken the decision of lifting the excommunication of the four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and to open at the same time doctrinal conversations with the Fraternity, aiming to overcome the difficulties and the problems of a doctrinal nature, and to achieve a reduction of the existing rupture.


     

    Obedient to the will of the Holy Father, a mixed study commission, composed of experts of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X and of experts of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, assembled eight times for meetings that took place in Rome between the month of October 2009 and the month of April 2011. These conversations, whose objective was that of presenting and examining the major doctrinal difficulties on controversial themes, achieved their goal, which was that of clarifying the respective positions and their motivations.


     

    Given the concerns and explanations presented by the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X regarding the integrity of the Catholic faith considering the hermeneutic of rupture of the Second Vatican Council in respect of Tradition - hermeneutic mentioned by Pope Benedict XVI in his Address to the Roman Curia of December 22, 2005 -, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith takes as a fundamental basis for a full reconciliation with the Apostolic See the acceptance of the Doctrinal Preamble which was delivered in the course of the meeting of September 14, 2011. This preamble enunciates some of the doctrinal principles and criteria of interpretation of Catholic doctrine necessary for ensuring fidelity to the Magisterium of the Church and to the sentire cum Ecclesia, while leaving open to legitimate discussion the study and theological explanation of particular expressions and formulations present in the texts of the Second Vatican Council and of the Magisterium that followed it.


     

    In the course of the same meeting, some elements were proposed regarding a canonical solution for the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X, which would follow the eventual and hoped-for reconciliation.




    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #2 on: September 14, 2011, 08:51:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: CNS
    Although the Vatican did not give the society a deadline, in order to move toward full reconciliation, leaders are expected to study and sign the preamble "within a few months," said Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, Vatican spokesman.


    I smell a rat already. (Like I didn't before....) :rolleyes:

    If it weren't ambiguous, then it would have been signed this morning.

    Since it is ambiguous, this could obviously go one of two ways:

    1) The Society will find a way to sign it (really, I hope not), or
    2) The Society will reject it and tell Rome to become Catholic.



    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline John Grace

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #3 on: September 14, 2011, 09:29:35 AM »
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  • Fr Morgan (District Superior Britain and Ireland) stated following in September newsletter.

    http://www.sspx.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=366:district-superiors-letter-september-2011-&catid=114:district-superiors-letter&Itemid=86
    Quote
    Rome meeting
     

    As mentioned in the previous newsletter, Bishop Fellay and the two Assistants will be meeting with Cardinal Levada in Rome on 14th September with regard to the outcome of the talks  which took place these past two years on the doctrinal issues.

     
    It is speculated that the Society’s canonical situation may also be addressed at this occasion, but it is important to remember that Bishop Fellay has repeatedly said, for example, in his Letters to Friends and Benefactors that any practical agreement could not come before a resolution of the doctrinal questions.

     
    The Superior General and the District Superiors will also be meeting at Albano, near Rome, from 6-8th October, but this has regard to media communications generally, and should not be seen as anything untoward.



    Offline Graham

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #4 on: September 14, 2011, 09:55:52 AM »
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  • How are people here seeing this? Is the Vatican moving towards tradition, or is the SSPX becoming more 'progressive'? Or both?


    Offline Charles

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #5 on: September 14, 2011, 10:12:07 AM »
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  • Seems a way for Rome to admit the SSPX isn't wrong, which is easier than admitting Rome has been wrong.

    Without admitting anything in simple words.

    Offline romanitaspress

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #6 on: September 14, 2011, 10:19:01 AM »
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  • It seems that the Holy See is finally conceding that the SSPX has proved its point that some of the Second Vatican Council's documents have problems, and that these can be discussed (as opposed to the previous tenor of "you *must* accept them at all costs").  This in itself is a big step in the doctrinal direction and I would contribute this victory to the 19 million rosaries crusade the SSPX had not too long ago (another rosary crusade is taking place now too:  http://sspx.org/rosary_crusade_2011/rosaries_crusade_2011.htm).

    I don't have any fears at all that Bishop Fellay (or the SSPX) will betray the ship: they have fought the good fight for too long and know intimately what is involved: the Catholic Faith and the salvation of souls. They will be faithful and transmit what Archbishop Lefebvre gave to the Catholic world.

    Also SSPX.ORG has announced that an exclusive interview of Bishop Fellay is due to be published today.

    Offline lefebvre_fan

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #7 on: September 14, 2011, 10:19:31 AM »
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  • I don't like this:

    Quote
    Father Lombardi said, "Today the most likely solution would be a personal prelature," which is a church jurisdiction without geographical boundaries designed to carry out particular pastoral initiatives. It is headed by a prelate, who is appointed by the pope; currently the church's only personal prelature is Opus Dei.


    Not that I have any say in the matter, but I suspect that the only way such a 'reconciliation' would be acceptable to the majority of the Society and its lay followers would be if the Society retained its ability to choose its own leader, independent of Rome.
    "The Catholic Church is the only thing which saves a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age."--G. K. Chesterton


    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #8 on: September 14, 2011, 10:37:35 AM »
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  • Not to seem overly concerned about material things, but do you think that any agreement they would make, would hand over their properties to the dioceses and then they could "liquidate" them to pay off debt for the scumbag molesters? I mean... has anyone thought of this being a possibility?

    If they're in "full communion" with Rome, wouldn't that give the churches to the dioceses and consequently "assets" of them to be liquidated to pay off for all the scandals?
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Pyrrhos

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #9 on: September 14, 2011, 10:41:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: lefebvre_fan
    I don't like this:

    Quote
    Father Lombardi said, "Today the most likely solution would be a personal prelature," which is a church jurisdiction without geographical boundaries designed to carry out particular pastoral initiatives. It is headed by a prelate, who is appointed by the pope; currently the church's only personal prelature is Opus Dei.


    Not that I have any say in the matter, but I suspect that the only way such a 'reconciliation' would be acceptable to the majority of the Society and its lay followers would be if the Society retained its ability to choose its own leader, independent of Rome.


    Every Prelate needs to be appointed by the Pope, one way or the other. In any case, the leader of a SSPX personal prelature would be a SSPX priest or bishop, I suppose.
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline John Grace

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #10 on: September 14, 2011, 10:54:21 AM »
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  • http://www.dici.org/en/news/holy-see-press-release-september-14-2011/
    Quote
    On September 14, 2011, at the headquarters of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, His Eminence the Most Reverend Cardinal William Levada, Prefect of that Congregation and President of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, His Excellency Archbishop Luis Ladaria, S.J., Secretary of that Congregation, and Monsignor Guido Pozzo, Secretary of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, met with His Excellency Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X, and Fathers Niklaus Pfluger and Alain-Marc Nély, General Assistants of the Society.

    After a petition was sent on December 15, 2008, by the Superior General of the Society of Saint Pius X to His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, the Holy Father decided to lift the excommunication of the four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and at the same time to begin doctrinal discussions with the Society, so as to overcome the difficulties and problems of a doctrinal nature and to remedy the existing break.* [*The medical expression used in the original French text means “to set a fracture”.]

    Obeying the Holy Father’s will, a joint study commission made up of experts of the Society of Saint Pius X and experts of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith assembled eight times for meetings that took place in Rome between October 2009 and April 2011.  The objective of these talks was to set forth and examine in depth the major doctrinal difficulties on the disputed topics;  they achieved their purpose, which was to clarify the respective positions and their motivations.

    Having considered the concerns and requests presented by the Society of Saint Pius X in connection with respect for the integrity of the Catholic faith as opposed to the hermeneutic of rupture that interprets the Second Vatican Council as a break with Tradition—a hermeneutic mentioned by Pope Benedict XVI in his Address to the Roman Curia on December 22, 2005—the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith takes as the fundamental basis for full reconciliation with the Apostolic See the acceptance of the Doctrinal Preamble that was delivered during the meeting on September 14, 2011.  This preamble enunciates some of the doctrinal principles and criteria for interpreting Catholic doctrine that are necessary in order to guarantee fidelity to the Magisterium of the Church and to sentire cum Ecclesia [thinking with the Church], while leaving open for legitimate discussion the study and theological explanation of particular expressions or formulations found in the documents of the Second Vatican Council and of the subsequent Magisterium.

    During the same meeting several elements were proposed with a view to a canonical solution for the Society of Saint Pius X, which would follow the eventual and hoped-for reconciliation.

    Further to the publication of the the press statement by the Holy See, Bishop Fellay, Superior General of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X, will voice his thoughts  in the course of an exclusive interview which will appear later today on DICI.




    Offline Charles

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #11 on: September 14, 2011, 12:50:47 PM »
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  • Offline parentsfortruth

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #12 on: September 14, 2011, 01:13:10 PM »
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  • Why must everything be "confidential?" Argh!
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #13 on: September 14, 2011, 01:34:30 PM »
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  • I am concerned at what seems to be the obvious effect of the Vativan's overtures here : By defining the SSPX position as merely an acceptable opinion and meanwhile forcing them to accept the Council "in light of Tradition" or whatever phrase they are using, they thus eliminate the magisterial authority of the encyclicals of the Popes by making the Ordinary Magisterium the subject of unlimited and endless re-interpretation by which its original sense is re-moored on novel foundations; they also eliminate the possibility of pointing out the clear contradictions between the heresies in Vatican II and the Ordinary Magisterium, whilst usurping for their neomodernist theories the equal prestige enjoyed by orthodoxy, the two being equally "legitimate theological opinions able to be held by those of good will."  But the modernists win everything with this, since they destroy by fact the authority of the Magisterium, thus setting the precedent by which they can formalise their victory after time causes memories of the Archbishop and the time before the Council to fade.  Anybody who says, "Well, we should give them the benefit of the doubt," is allowing himself to be suckered into watching these Modernists trample on the Faith because of his false charity and wishful thinking.  Read Auctorem Fidei and Pascendi Dominici.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Vatican gives traditionalists doctrinal statement to sign
    « Reply #14 on: September 14, 2011, 01:46:32 PM »
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  • Rome will then have its hybrid Church and hybrid Mass, disguising them with some traditional aesthetics in order to fool the crowd and distract them from its great coup : an edifice that is modernist at heart and at the mercy of the interpretations of a class of liberal theological "experts."  Those who accept these precedents are being played out of holding to the true Faith in the sense it has always clearly been understood by the Church.

     

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