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Author Topic: validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )  (Read 4292 times)

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Offline AgnesRoma

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  • I live in the area, where we can travel in less than 30 minutes to    SSPX, Independent Traditional Latin Mass Church, and several of Diocese sponsored Latin Mass.

    Question is that while I was attending independent church, which only offer Latin Mass.  They have several priests.  

    One of the priest told me my Novus Ordo Baptism is questionable.  therefore he did not want me to take communion and leave half way through the mass when mass of  Catechumen  is finish.    Other priests there  did not make differentiation between seems to accepted Novus Ordo Baptism as Catholic.

    Q #1
    What is  SSPX opinion about person who are baptized in Novus Ordo format ,  or confirmed in Novus Ordo rite.   SSPX consider such person to be Catholic or Confirmed ?




    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )
    « Reply #1 on: August 27, 2014, 05:29:48 PM »
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  • See, the idea is that anyone can baptize - even heretics and apostates if the correct matter, form and intention is used.

    However, some people think the form by which baptisms are done in the Novus Ordo (how the water gets on the baby or vice versa) is wrong, which makes the whole baptism invalid.

    Confirmation is a whole different story. Some in the SSPX believe that the priests and bishops of the Novus Ordo are not real priests - like a Protestant minister. As a result, with no valid clergy, there is no valid Confirmation, among other things.

    Now, would they consider you Catholic with the assumptions you posted? Possibly. They may ask that you conditionally rebaptize/re-confirm in a traditional form to be safe. You can repeat a Sacrament if there are doubts about its validity.

    For example, Mormons have a faulty, polytheist understanding of the Trinity. This invalidates Mormon baptisms in the eyes of the Church. Certain Pentecostal communities don't believe in the Trinity at all. Others use different words to convey different understandings anathema to Catholicism.

    All those would need to be re-baptized if they were to convert to the Roman Catholic Church.

    Hope this helps.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...


    Offline Stubborn

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    validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )
    « Reply #2 on: August 28, 2014, 05:30:24 AM »
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  • The sacraments are always presumed valid unless proven otherwise or there is positive doubt.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline True Faith

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    validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )
    « Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 08:07:49 AM »
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  • In confirmation, the N.O doesn't necessarily use the proper oil. That would be a change in matter and would be invalid I think. I'm in the same boat!

    Offline Himagain

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    validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )
    « Reply #4 on: August 28, 2014, 09:33:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: AgnesRoma
    I live in the area, where we can travel in less than 30 minutes to    SSPX, Independent Traditional Latin Mass Church, and several of Diocese sponsored Latin Mass.

    Question is that while I was attending independent church, which only offer Latin Mass.  They have several priests.  

    One of the priest told me my Novus Ordo Baptism is questionable.  therefore he did not want me to take communion and leave half way through the mass when mass of  Catechumen  is finish.    Other priests there  did not make differentiation between seems to accepted Novus Ordo Baptism as Catholic.

    Q #1
    What is  SSPX opinion about person who are baptized in Novus Ordo format ,  or confirmed in Novus Ordo rite.   SSPX consider such person to be Catholic or Confirmed ?




    Very sad to hear this.  It seems you are being deprived of the sacraments unjustly, though by good intentions.  We will continue to see much more of this kind of thing, I think.  Without a functioning Pope and Magesterium, even those wishing to remain with the True Church will divide and alienate the remnant, or fall away from confusion about where the Truth resides.  


    Offline Croix de Fer

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    validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )
    « Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 09:50:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: AgnesRoma

    Q #1
    What is  SSPX opinion about person who are baptized in Novus Ordo format ,  or confirmed in Novus Ordo rite.   SSPX consider such person to be Catholic or Confirmed ?



    SSPX has always held the position that all of the novus ordo Sacraments are valid. This especially makes the ape mass of the novus ordo even more sacrilegious and insulting to the Lord Jesus Christ during Communion, because He is present - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - while the irreverence, sacrilege, clown antics, and slob presence during the calvinist-inspired mass proceeds.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline AgnesRoma

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    validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )
    « Reply #6 on: August 28, 2014, 10:06:26 AM »
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  • I am new to Traditional Catholicism ( since 2011 ).  and even newer to independent church or SSPX.     I think issue of validity of sacrament such as baptism or priesthood are discouraging many to go to independent church or SSPX unfortunately.   while attending Latin Mass at Diocese church , validity have been never questioned.  That is anyone who are baptized in Novus Ordo are also allow to participate in Latin Mass.  in my opinion Independent church and SSPX are pushing away parishioner, by saying they are not Catholic because questionable baptism.
     

    Offline AgnesRoma

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    validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )
    « Reply #7 on: August 28, 2014, 10:13:21 AM »
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  • I did not know SSPX position is that all Novus Ordo sacraments are valid.   That is the answer I was looking for.   where I live there is also Independent church which is Not SSPX affiliated.  One of the priest there said Novus Ordo baptism is questionable and even priest may not be even priest.  I guess Independent church mean they can set any rule, while SSPX is more organized.


    Offline Anthony Benedict

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    validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )
    « Reply #8 on: August 28, 2014, 10:51:15 AM »
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  • The late Canon Gregory Hesse, STL, STD on Validity/Invalidity of Novus Ordo Sacraments


    Offline TKGS

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    validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )
    « Reply #9 on: August 28, 2014, 11:57:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: AgnesRoma
    I am new to Traditional Catholicism ( since 2011 ).  and even newer to independent church or SSPX.     I think issue of validity of sacrament such as baptism or priesthood are discouraging many to go to independent church or SSPX unfortunately.   while attending Latin Mass at Diocese church , validity have been never questioned.  That is anyone who are baptized in Novus Ordo are also allow to participate in Latin Mass.  in my opinion Independent church and SSPX are pushing away parishioner, by saying they are not Catholic because questionable baptism.  


    Quote from: AgnesRoma
    I did not know SSPX position is that all Novus Ordo sacraments are valid. That is the answer I was looking for.


    I find this troubling.  We should not be looking for answers that we want.  We should be looking for answers that are True.

    Of course the validity of the sacraments at a diocesan church is not going to be questioned.  They are part of the Conciliar church which made changes to every one of the sacraments and some of those changes were in the very form, i.e., the fundamental nature, of the sacrament.  

    Frankly, I would rather that there be no problem in the Church.  I would rather know that the Conciliar church is really Catholic and that there was no problem with it or any of its sacraments.  I would rather be able to think that attending the traditional Mass or the Novus Ordo were simply a matter of preference.

    I would rather that all these things be true, but they simply cannot be.

    The fact is that the Conciliar church has changed a great many things and are leading souls to hell by their teachings.  Most Conciliar catholics no longer believe in fundamental dogmas, e.g., the Real Presence, the indissolubility of marriage, that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts are always a mortal sin, that abortion and artificial means of birth control are always mortal sins, that there is no natural law, etc., etc., etc.  There are so many dogmas that are absolutely rejected by Conciliar catholic laymen and clergy that it would be impossible to list them all.  

    Now, an independent priest who declares that all Novus Ordo baptisms are invalid is a problem, for that also would be a denial of Church dogma for even a heretic or pagan can validly baptize.  I think that, before we could help you with your questions, we would have to know on what grounds the priest says your baptism is doubtful.

    But, please, don't simply look for the answers you want to hear.  Search for the Truth.  Salvation will only be found in Truth.  It is not found in wishful thinking.

    Offline AgnesRoma

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    validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )
    « Reply #10 on: August 28, 2014, 01:16:00 PM »
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  • I also found the priest in the independent church to be strange.   he says the priest baptized me is not validly ordained priest, because he was ordained by Normal Catholic church in Novus Ordo.  Therefore, he did not performed valid baptism in proper way.   I heard same priest often do not give absolution or gave perpetual penance that never end , The sin would be never forgiven.  He also said he is the only true priest out of ## in that independent church.  Other priests are not teaching well, so on.  He even said he is the only priest can lead people to heaven.  I think he was trying to get people to attend his Mass.  After that I went back to Diocese Mass.  it is too bad, because I liked other priest very much, just one priest made me not going to that independent church at all,  I heard many other decide to go to Diocese mass because of the same priest giving them hard time.  recently there is SSPX church near by within driving distance.   so I was thinking of trying them out, I heard many sermon from SSPX priest on youtube, they are pretty good and easy to understand.  but, I was afraid if I ended up similar situation I experienced at independent church.  that Novus Ordo sacrament are All invalid so on.  so I was asking this question.


    Offline TKGS

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    validity of Novus Ordo sacraments ? ( Baptism or confirmation )
    « Reply #11 on: August 28, 2014, 01:46:39 PM »
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  • Based on this information, I would not attend the independent chapel.  However, I would not attend the diocesan indult either because their priestly orders are, at best, doubtful and they are part and parcel of the Conciliar church.  You should attend the SSPX chapel that you say is nearby or continue to search for other options.

    This is a sad situation, but do not allow the bad to drive you to just as bad (i.e., a cultish independent priest driving you to the protestant Conciliar church).

    Offline AgnesRoma

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    « Reply #12 on: August 28, 2014, 02:16:28 PM »
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  • I often wonder if that Independent priest are trying to destroy Traditional Latin mass rather than promoting it.   practically,  if new parishioner come to this independent church ( priest ).  he will first tell them , they are not Catholic.  and if they happen to go to confession with him, he will give them very strict penance such as perpetual penance.   That new parishioner soon return to Diocese Latin Mass or Novus Ordo.  and the same time, he give impression Latin Mass church are strange cult type.  The same priest yell and scream during homily, as loud as he can, and amplified audio get distorted.     He remind of me screaming preacher from other church, not seen in Catholic church.  Other priests who share same chapel are exactly opposite, nice , calm and believe Novus Ordo Baptism and other Sacraments are valid.  but, since different priest take turn on giving mass,  you don't know who will be the priest offering mass until parishioner show up that day.  so by avoiding one priest, I have to avoid entire chapel at once.

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    « Reply #13 on: August 28, 2014, 02:30:22 PM »
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  • Yes, I'd probably avoid that independent priest. Baptisms are valid if done correctly, don't let the priest trick you. Orders are irrelevant.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...