Author Topic: Valid entry into the Church  (Read 1214 times)

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Offline Lanciano8

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Valid entry into the Church
« on: April 07, 2011, 06:25:10 PM »
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  • Hello.

    In general at least, has a person validly "entered the Church" (as in "become" Roman Catholic and have valid access to the sacraments) if they really had no proper intention at the time of the rite (13 years ago) and still, no matter how well expounded, refuse and seem psychophysically/psychologically incapable of accepting/understanding/obeying Church teaching (N.O. or Traditional)?  This person was already baptised and confirmed Lutheran as a child before (outwardly) making the Catholic profession of faith at an Easter vigil.  However this person has stated that they really just wanted a place to sing, and believes that all religions are just "all about God" without regard to the Church having the Truth and the others teaching error.  Some of the Truths denied are: the Real Presence (because there's no "feeling"); the impossibility of religious divorce; the need to avoid near occassion of sin (calling it "fear"); the need to repudiate indecent, sexual and anti-Catholic music/movies/mmusicals/plays; the need to understand that God and spousal honor come before other family and rock musician's "talent"; problems of ignoring of the Bible (thus Christ also), etc.  I hope that I have given enough understandable examples of the problem.  I myself believe firmly in the Truth and moral authority of the Church, most solidly based on (my belief of) the scientifically proven Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano (five globules of the Lord's Blood weighting the same separately as they all weigh together).

    Given that Catholic Charities will not counsel a married couple on (GENUINE) Catholic teachings, the need to respect and honor a spouse with an aim toward true grace (not society's "niceties"), and the requirement of raising children in the (GENUINE) Catholic faith, what is an alternative?  What can someone do while faced with the possibility of losing custody of a child whose Catholic upbringing is endangered, while trying to deal with the religious-unfaithfulness and ignorance of a spouse and the danger of involvement by the misunderstanding civil authorities?

    Does anyone know of GENUINE pro-life Catholic lay-ministry missionary communities, particularly in the northeastern U.S. (at least to start out), that has the Latin Mass, Catholic group-home childcare and Catholic group home-schooling?  I am also interested in exorcism and asceticism.


    Thank you.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    SCIENTIFIC PROOF: Five different-sized globules of Blood, each separately, and in any combination,
    weigh the same as all five globules together -- the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, Italy, 8th Century!

    Offline Lanciano8

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    « Reply #1 on: April 07, 2011, 07:51:34 PM »
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  • I need to add....

    I think I probably posted to the wrong forum.  Sorry about that, although I hope that my questions and anyone's answers could be seen as useful to anyone with a similar situation.  But if not, I'll gladly repost in another forum here.

    Anyway, I want to say also that this person with problems in Catholic belief and practice also has problems with some (not all) basic common sense and constructive criticism. There seems to be genuine difficulty to understand, as well as a (sometimes angry, screaming) resentment of the other's wisdom -- to the point of deliberately NOT doing what's expected or obviously right.  There's difficulty with math, driving (even riding charitably) and financial responsibility (in volunteering to help with shared expenses).

    Also, I want to say that I am essentially debt-free (after certain sales) and able to relocate to where I could serve the Church best.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    SCIENTIFIC PROOF: Five different-sized globules of Blood, each separately, and in any combination,
    weigh the same as all five globules together -- the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, Italy, 8th Century!


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #2 on: April 07, 2011, 08:23:31 PM »
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  • If I understand you correctly this woman is a wife, who is threatening her husband, who may or may not be you, with a quickie Novus Ordo divorce.  She is a touchy-feely New Age-y nominally Catholic type and is causing her husband grief, and he is worried she will pervert the mind of their child.  

    I have seen this more than once, the trad Catholic man with the emotionally unstable "All roads lead to God" kind of wife.  Go check out the thread in "Catholic Living in the Modern World" which asks the question, would the forum members marry a Novus Ordo woman?  I said "No" unequivocally and this is the reason.  I would sooner marry a Protestant or Jew if she was at least respectful of my Catholic faith.  But many die-hard Novus Ordo women of the genre you're describing, and they are very familiar to me, are basically New Age flower-child baby-boomer feminists in disguise and are brimming over with contempt for traditional Catholicism i.e. Catholicism, preferring the "church" of self-worship.  I am familiar with at least two extremely miserable marriages of this type, with the Novus Ordo-y woman fighting the traditional Catholic man every single step of the way, about absolutely every little thing, exactly as you describe here -- not just about religious matters.  

    Did the husband who may or may not be you marry this lady in the Novus Ordo?  It may not be a real Church marriage, objectively speaking, though it's still a legal one.  But I'm not the expert on that subject.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Darcy

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    « Reply #3 on: April 07, 2011, 09:42:42 PM »
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  • Quote
    There's difficulty with math, driving (even riding charitably) and financial responsibility (in volunteering to help with shared expenses

     :confused1:

    Do you think this woman could possibly have some sort of mental illness?

    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #4 on: April 07, 2011, 09:45:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lanciano8
    Does anyone know of GENUINE pro-life Catholic lay-ministry missionary communities, particularly in the northeastern U.S. (at least to start out), that has the Latin Mass, Catholic group-home childcare and Catholic group home-schooling?  I am also interested in exorcism and asceticism.


    You need to talk to a priest.  I do not think that any such group exists anywhere in the world.  If your spouse wants a civil divorce, she's going to get it.  If she tries to get an annulment, you can defend against that:

    http://saveoursacrament.org/

    Are you sure that you want full custody of your kids?


    Offline Lanciano8

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    « Reply #5 on: April 09, 2011, 12:09:56 PM »
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  • Well, I did it.   And thanks, everyone, for your responses. I do hope to discuss more.

    I told my wife this morning, that I want to go to the local (diocesan) Latin Mass.  Ultimately, she said she'll go along (but may have only meant this once), if we go to the campus ministry Mass on Easter at the state university near where she grew up.  We'll be up there visiting her family, so there's no Latin Mass I know up there for miles(hours) around. I'll have to check into that. So I won't receive there.  I initiated telling my wife about this by first expounding on "excommunication" as described in the Bible (delivering one to Satan...) and then talking about how the "form" of a sacrament is important, relating it to "I do"<->"I do" (going both ways), "I baptise you..." and "I absolve you..." -- so there *may* be a problem with "for all".  She initially said (of the Consecration) that "it is what it is".  She also said (from her point of view that she doesn't want our daughter "excluded from Easter egg hunts". I'm not sure yet where to go with that statement.

    So this was all after I spent 5 hours last night writing what follows, unedited and maybe not as complete as I would like:

    -- Start --------------

    The person I'm writing of is a woman (How'd you guess?) and my wife.  I wrote in a way to be fair to either "gender" dealing with these kinds of problems.  But a threat, besides "divorce" (or worse, adultery committed "after" it) is the uncaring civil courts that will let a mother have custody of children even when she has problems (besides religious error) -- and from what I can reason and have read, I don't think I can risk that; I must do everything in my power to see to my daughter's Catholic upbringing. Losing custody, even part time, does not seem like it would help that,... unless court-ordered visitation or part-time custody would empower me to do more in certain ways that I've considered....

    One thing I did read once (not sure where at the moment) did claim that "divorce" (with "remarriage" discussed later here) is better (I forget the reason, but maybe it had to do with preserving one's own faith) than staying with the person.

    My daughter is 2 and 2/3.  She does seem to want me, rather than her mother, to help her with things most often. While the problems have not led to any hitting or throwing things at all (not even once in 6 years), there is shouting, most (regretably) on my part from the pain of being ignored on serious (and even some of the simplest) Catholic religious matters. Are all (or any) of the problems enough to scream about? Perhaps not. We've argued about the importance (or at least benefit) of taking the time to think about using simple common sense on non-religious issues.  But she thinks that just because I'm right about some things that I think I'm always right. I certainly know I'm not always right or doing right. I'm not perfect.  She resents even when her mother points out certain things.  And when I'm angry about a serious wrong, she changes the subject to try to tell me to "get that look off your face".  Maybe I can't have perfectly "holy anger" but I believe that it is okay to be angry, show it (short of hitting/throwing) and do fraternal correction (for which there are Bible passages for presedence).  But she rejects St. Paul's epistles in regard to moral teachings, thoroughly.

    Our daughter cries when we yell at each other (most me) around her, and I'm sorry about that; but in the moments, I feel that waiting to discuss something later (that rarely could happen anyway), is either too late or takes the issues out of context (like, why bring that up now?).

    We married 6 years ago in the N.O.  But I say that without doubting that the marriage could be valid.  I know a lot of the details around that: the "ministers" of the sacrament are ourselves, while the priest is a witness for the Church, etc.  I've also read the Canon Law (1983) on marriage, and various commentaries.  I certainly must safeguard the marriage with the assumption that it is valid, though I understand that a handful of declarations of nullity were granted yearly pre-N.O.

    I was raised through Catholic elementary school, though I think it was all about "how" and not so much "why".  With puberty, I basically "fell away" but still went to Mass with my family. The local high school was public, and even when we moved closer to a Catholic H.S., I think I made the choice to go to another public school. My younger sister went to the Catholic H.S. at least (the last?) two years.  At age 27, certain events got me started reading the Bible.  Then Jesus' words about divorce, and reading C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity", brought me back to Catholic faith. But it still took me 5 years to get (mostly) "cleaned up" morally. I began reading Catholic apologetics -- couldn't get enough of it, and still love it.  It led me to a superficial knowledge of traditional Catholicism, particularly with EWTN's Mass.  But I was seeking "love" in those 5 years.  Then I met my wife....

    She was raised (nominally) Lutheran, though I think most Protestants don't live what their sects (NOT using the word "denominations") teach.  Her parents told me recently that they suspected early (some time after she was in a car accident at age 6 and changed from being "bubbly" to subdued) that she may have a mental illness (for the same reasons I've mentioned of not using/understanding common sense).  But doctors wouldn't tell them anything.  A doctor friend of theirs once suggested that she may have problems. I'm not sure which happened first, but she had a college guy friend who took her to Mass at least once (but didn't tell her that she was not to receive Communion). Another time, she walked in on a Mass on campus, thinking that it was supposed to be a play. She joined the chior there first, then "entered the Church" in 1998 because (as she says) it was a place she "felt free to sing".  In late September 2003, on CatholicMingle.com, she "smiled" at me, 90 miles away.

    She was afraid of my profile's mentioning that I wanted to have as many children as God chose (in financial reason), but still liked me otherwise. She seemed at least reasonably interested in my books and knowledge of Catholic apologetics.  And we shared a common interest in Catholic hymns.  I introduced her to Catholic contemporary music (Cooper, Gibson, the Hands, Fortuna, Troccoli and MORE).  She had an interest in running a child daycare in the home, which was actually something I had previously considered as a possibility.  So we "dated" for 5 months.  In her rented house, she had a male housemate from having advertised for a housemate, not knowing that it was scandalous.  She told me that a priest told her that women in church were talking about it.  And while I was still not fully considerate of the moral problem myself, I spent most nights there on her couch.  I shoveled her driveway (OFTEN, that winter), worked remote (in computers) there on evening and weekend shifts, and dubbed a cassette tape recording to CD of a tribute concert for her mother's Luther church organist's retirement.  We were NOT intimate, but TOO CLOSE (in a few words) on the couch, watching movies.  She said she wanted a "This is the one" sign in flashing lights.

    Near Christmas, I took her on a horse and buggy ride when I said I love her -- which was returned with what seemed like a cold shoulder.

    I did have some idea that she did not know much Catholic faith or moral teaching.  But somewhere along the line, she said she wanted to learn to be Catholic.  I banked on that....

    I proposed on V's Day.

    We didn't tell the priest that I was often staying at her house, and I still continued to do so.  Her diocese allows 9 months minimum before marriage; mine allows no less than 12.  Her diocese has no "marriage mentors" while mine does (and I think that was one thing we really should have had). But we did do Engaged Encounter and (I think it's called) FOCUS.

    Now here's another problem: in May, I moved in with my (widower) dad while my wife-to-be moved into my apartment.  I don't think I spent any nights with her there, though, because I probably didn't want to scandalize my dad.

    Then, we bought a house 20 minutes away, and moving day was 9/30.  But we never BOTH stayed there over night before the wedding that was 11/27.

    From the wedding night, we immediately tried to conceive, based on (at least just) my belief that contraception is sin.  She was tired, and while I used no physical force, I believe now that my insistance may have been mortally sinful.

    After no success for a while, we began using NFP for the purpose of conceiving.  Then in late 2005, we had a pregnancy end in miscarriage at eight weeks.  We unofficially named the child with unisex first and middle names, but we did not have the body saved for burial; I'm still not sure if we shouldn't have.  The hospital is Catholic(?) and the doctor, who told us of the miscarriage, at least said he's Christian, recommended a D&C, and prayed with us before doing so right then....    I'm teary-eyed right now.

    Long before this, likely very soon after the wedding, we were having marital problems, mostly in regard to charity, finances and making time to be intimate. I'll address that last one first: she USUALLY insisted on doing laundry and not be (maritally)playful at all.  She kept her separate bank account (though I conceded to it making "business sense" for her childcare in our home) and hoarded her money for daycare toys, barely helping with utilities, groceries, rent and taxes.  And, while this may be difficult to explain or understand, she would not be charitable in trying to quiet her unsteady, choked-sounding, oral breathing in bed that kept me awake long most nights; I often had to sleep in another room -- and I still do.  We also began to argue Christian moral values. We even went to a marriage counselor who is presumably Catholic, but he just said I should mellow out; so that ended.

    But we discussed things until it seemed like there was an understanding (although now I think it was silent doubt).  So I held out hope that things were improving.  We conceived again in late 2007,... and then it bacame clearer to me that my wife didn't previously realize that the Church teaches that the Eucharist REALLY IS the Body and Blood of the Lord.

    No amount of explaining, from any angle, seems to convince my wife of this Truth -- not even that the scientific proof of the Miracle of Lanciano (particularly each globule of the Blood weighing the same as all of them together).  I am devistated!

    Then our daughter was born, and we've been busy for nearly (or over) three years. But in that time, our financial problem continued (on top of the national financial crisis).  My wife would not seek income for 17 weeks after the pregnancy (where 6 weeks is commonly understandable/necessary), and then she wouldn't actively seek work when her childcare wasn't earning enough to pay its own expenses.

    She's become (I think starting from her teen years) more obsessed with "honoring" the "godliness" (social charity) of one former(?) member of the Hooters, Andy King, (and communicating with him and the others on Facebook), at my expense (as far as honoring me).  King, of course, doesn't believe in an church "organization" (as he understands it) and is just "spiritual".  I knew of her interest in the Hooters before we married, but I don't remember her mentioning (much) about King (who's no "king" of Truth, that's for sure).

    In these three years then, I've occassionally sought help for what to do with our problems, religiously and financially.  I e-mailed Scott Hahn's office about one issue of our problems and my understanding of what's right, and they agreed. (Sorry, I can't think right now what it was about.)  I called Catholic Charities, that isn't taking new cases.  I contacted a diocesan priest involved in family counseling (who also is a Defender of the Bond), but he said he couldn't help.  I contacted Father PAUL SCHENK in our diocese, although not so much about our problems; and I respect his response: love your wife.  I even contacted the diocesan FSSP priest who pastors the LM society near here, and he suggested contacting Catholic Charities (which, as I've said, isn't taking new clients and won't help on religious matters).

    So we prepared to declare bankruptcy.  After nine months of paperwork and unnecessary delays, we now only have the mortgage and car loan.  We owe less than their values.
    But explaining how she should still contribute to the utility, mortgage and tax expenses is still a bit difficult.  Why do we keep separate bank accounts now?  I am not sure.

    She continues to question the Eucharist for giving her no "feeling" (like today, in fact).  She has accused me of condemning her cousin who has downs syndrome JUST BECAUSE she has downs syndrome, but I NEVER did NOR ever would even think such a thing!   She threatened to divorce me once simply because my sister accuses my dad (and deceased mom) of molestation, although I've told my wife that I don't know what to believe; I won't even leave our daughter alone with him, even though my sister has been diagnosed with schizophrenia.  She blames me for the clutter in the house although NINETY-FIVE percent of it is hers!  She blames me alone for our financial problems although she co-signed on big purchases OR thinks that saying "Are you sure we can do this?" means "Don't do it" when I was telling her that we can do it if her childcare income keeps up.

    Do I think she has a mental illness?  Yes.  Can some particular mental illnesses invalidate a marriage?  I DON'T KNOW what extent the pre-N.O. Church law and practice (or even new law and practice) goes on that?  Do I think I can find out without jeopardizing custody of my daughter?  That is why I am here.  But, I want to be absolutely cautious.

    She is attached to worldliness, her NIECES' activities, irreligious immoral music and the all-religions-are-about-God(not-Truth) mentality to such a degree, and with the threat of custody court, I am afraid to suggest that we see mental health counseling or go to the Traditional Mass.  She won't be satisfied with it.

    All these problems have pressed me, more and more over time, especially the last THREE WEEKS, to seek help, guidance and the Lord's truth with greater graces, so I've been looking more into the Traditional Mass.  Aside from all the conflict over "many/all" (which has me deeply troubled), I do believe that the Tridentine Mass is more efficacious (as well as more reverent and preserving/encouraging reverence in the congregation.  It HAS concerned me for a long time that the congregation's "orans" position and holding hands during Mass, clapping, excessive talking, folk-type music, radio-(Christian)hits music, drums, chimes, guitars, trumpets, "live" Stations, all seem so irreverant.

    -- End -----------

    I'll just add down here....

    Due to my reading, for these last 3 weeks -- still left a bit uncertain about "for all" -- I have not received Communion.

    I'm aware that the vernacular will be changed to "for many" with Advent this year (why wait?), but does that change other problems?....
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    SCIENTIFIC PROOF: Five different-sized globules of Blood, each separately, and in any combination,
    weigh the same as all five globules together -- the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, Italy, 8th Century!

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #6 on: April 09, 2011, 01:20:31 PM »
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  • Did your wife show signs of being strongly attracted to you before marriage?  Did she seem strongly attached to you?

    Offline Catholic Samurai

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    « Reply #7 on: April 09, 2011, 02:26:06 PM »
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  • In MOST cases, mental illness is caused by excessive pride. That should be clear to anyone. Does excessive pride invalidate a marriage? Obviously, no.

    But as for what the courts think, I dont know. Your a male to begin with, so the "family" courts are going to show you little if any leniency, since most of them are run by feminists and lesbians who, needless to say, hate men.
    "Louvada Siesa O' Sanctisimo Sacramento!"~warcry of the Amakusa/Shimabara rebels

    "We must risk something for God!"~Hernan Cortes


    TEJANO AND PROUD!


    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    « Reply #8 on: April 09, 2011, 03:08:55 PM »
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  •  Couldn't you seek annulment? If this marriage is very bad then it can make you depressed and mentally sick too. It can be worse for your children, worse than seeing their parents seperated.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #9 on: April 09, 2011, 03:21:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: spouse of Jesus
    Couldn't you seek annulment? If this marriage is very bad then it can make you depressed and mentally sick too.


    An annulment is not a way out of a bad marriage.  Marriage is for better or for worse.

    Quote
    It can be worse for your children, worse than seeing their parents seperated.


    Separation is possible.

    I think he should be very patient.  Easier said than done.

    Offline Darcy

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    « Reply #10 on: April 09, 2011, 03:44:09 PM »
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  • This is what I would do.

    I would stop arguing with her. On everything. Just stop.
    Don't panic about loosing her or the marriage dissolving.
    Go to seperate Masses if you must.

    She will get very indignant once you 'change the script' but persevere in a nonargumentative way.  Pray for patience. :pray:
    Don't explain anything. Stop criticizing or trying to give her your pov.  :argue:
    Be courteous to her like you used to be.

    This is very, very hard but not impossible with God's help.
    Think of it as a challenge.  :boxer:

    Sometimes destructive patterns are habituated.  That pattern has to be broken before resolution begins.

    Just stop it....and see what happens.

    God be with you.



     

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