Yes, you are right but we are to bring the truth to those outside the True Church (as is the Novus Ordo). No body likes to hear the truth, me especially, but there it is.

 But as Catholics, we are not supposed to curse, but love our enemies. Certain saints and churchmen may have been inspired to proclaim punishment by God, but the catechism tells us it is a sin to wish evil on another human being. (Whether or not the above are sinful cases or not , the saints were not perfect, even if they were near to it and went absolutely to heaven. Only Christ and the Blessed Virgin were wholly without sin.)

 "Pray for them that persecute and calumnate you..."
 "Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you..."

 These sentiments are the spirit of God. Remember also that on one occasion the apostles said in probably just indignation, speaking to Christ, "Shall we command that fire come down from heaven and consume them?" (or words to that effect) to which Christ replied, "You know not of what spirit you are."

 Curses are not, and never have been pious, holy practices. While certain men, as representatives of Christ on earth, may have the power to punish in this fashion, and may do so justly (let the Church and God be the judge of this), we sheep have no such power an authority, and would do better to remember rather how we would hope to be spared and forgiven, and met with God's patience if we were in grave error or sin.

 Rather than curse, let us pray for them that they may meet the fate we would wish for ourselves if we were unfortunate enough to be in their shoes. Remember that every time we say the Our Father, we ask God to judge us as we judge others. If we are so quick to curse, what can we expect when we are judged by our selfsame standard in eternity?

Just some thoughts to ponder on this...

 :sad:

I find the curses of de Montfort harsh because they could not result in an efficacious repentence and turn around.  As a parent and grandparent, I can not help but believe that a divine punishment which is known to stem from a wrong doing is what we should wish for ourselves and our neighbor.  That is why I said that the problem today is that people don't see their woes as punishment for their sins.  It's not that God isn't correcting people, but that people aren't connecting the dots.  And isn't that just what the Bible said would happen in these days.  

People, esp. my husband, will say to me, if it's any consolation I have a headache (or whatever), too.  And I always tell them that their pain doesn't abate mine one bit.  I get nothing from another's pain, except pain for them.  But when a person is turned from evil, I get a lot.  It is not a question of rejoicing in their punishment.  St. John Bosco was another case, who once told a young heckler he would go blind and he did.  Later he told him how to regain his sight---in the confessional.  

Dulcamara, you are too far to one side.  Move over a bit.

 Not at all. I was only pointing out that we shouldn't curse people. I think God has used the saints and churchmen to proclaim just judgment... but I certainly do not deny that often times misfortunes are our correction. In fact, it is the very reason for all suffering... our own correction, or to obtain the grace for someone else's.

 But if I pray for the correction of another, I usually pray that God enlighten them. I leave it to Him, being all-knowing and infinitely prudent as I am not, to prescribe the cure. If I know someone with a drinking problem, it may seem to me that that person getting into a terrible accident on the way to or from the bar would be a great way for God to get the message across (not that I actually think so), but only God knows, as only He knows the utmost depths of our minds and hearts and souls, what could awaken us or move us from our wicked paths.

 Finally, if a sinner loves his vices, and stubbornly intends to cling to them, they probably will virtually no matter how God afflicts them. Such a soul chooses hell. God is more likely to give them their heaven (in justice) here on earth, than punishments and chastisements which, in His infinite knowledge, He knows will not move that particular sinner. Some choose hell absolutely. For the rest, I trust God knows what He is doing in bringing them along, chastising them as He knows is most likely to bring them to their senses, quite without my help or direction.

 I, on the other hand, if I begin to make myself judge of others and the state of their soul, and begin so to condemn others with curses I would certainly not wish on myself, I neither do myself, nor my neighbor any favors. It is better for me to have pity on my neighbor and pray or do some penance for them... by this, not only is my neighbor helped genuinely as God knows will be best for him, but I, too, am helped by my opportunity to practice charity and humility. And chances are there are shades of my neighbor's "horrible sin" in my own behavior somewhere. So let my prayer rather be, "God, have mercy on us both... for not only this man, but myself also, I am a sinner too."

Which prayer will be more pleasing to God? "God, please let something bad happen to my neighbor to bring him to his senses?" or "God, remember the blood shed for this man, and have mercy on him, as I also pray for your mercy."

Dulcamara, you are too far to one side.  Move over a bit.

Trinity --

I would suggest you hear her out a bit.  In other words, get to know her by reading MANY of her posts. I say this because I know her well (she's my sister) and like me, she is the type you have to get to know.

Some people are easily misunderstood by just reading one or two posts -- I'm one of them, and Dulcamara is another. For that matter, the Catholic Faith takes a bit of studying before a person really starts to understand it. So it's not that surprising. Perhaps it's not just myself and Dulcamara, but ALL "non-shallow" or "non-predictable because they are real" people?

I just know that she isn't a character on a sitcom, who you can "peg" after one glance, or a few posts. Real people are much more interesting (and complex) than that.
 
Anyhow, if you take ALL my posts together in a pile, (or Dulcamara's), I think you'll find few (if any) problems.

Matthew

  :faint:

  Well, I don't know if I'd go THAT far... but most of the problems might be more in the lines of grammar and spelling than doctrine. Not because I'm smart, but because I'm mainly passing on things I've learned from people who are smart, like certain bishops, or St. Thomas, or the (pre-1900's) popes. Truth and wisdom began with God in eternity, are nothing new (certainly not to MY credit), and therefore are often found in much older sources.

To reduce the swelling of my ego, most of this stuff could be found in the ancient history of Christ's Church (in the mouths of blessed, holy and intelligent men) with a little looking. I'm just a nifty human parrot.  

-edit-

Actually, there would be very few, if any, disputes among Catholics on matters of ideas or 'views' if only more of them would go read what the popes and saints said. There is only one truth, one answer. As Catholics, it really shouldn't be this problematic for us to arrive at that answer, especially when errors (human nature not changing) tend to repeat in history, and most of them have been answered by the popes (and saints) in no uncertain terms.

Here is the biggest problem with the world today: