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Author Topic: Traditionalists and Trust  (Read 4122 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Traditionalists and Trust
« on: January 20, 2014, 08:08:04 PM »
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  • I see Tradition as a ladder of trust.

    On the top-most rung of the ladder, you have those in the Novus Ordo who wear rose-colored glasses and think everything is OK and on the up-and-up. They make excuses for everything and everyone, to a ridiculous degree. Example: defending the words and writings of Pope Francis.

    Then you have countless rungs in the middle.

    The bottom-most rung of the ladder is a complete lack of trust. At this point, Catholics become home-aloners and consider themselves The Last Catholic, or one of a literal handful of true Catholics left alive. They believe the Second Coming is imminent, and they believe that Mass and the Sacraments are now impossible due to lack of priests. Somehow they don't realize that their perceived "failure" of the Church is a failure of Christ's promise.

    I believe the Recognize and Resist position is somewhere in the middle. Below that, you have the Resistance, and somewhere below that you have Sedevacantism. Below that is dogmatic Sedevacantism and conclavist Sedevacantism.

    This idea was first put in my head by another Matthew, who also spent time at the SSPX seminary and was actually in my class!
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    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Traditionalists and Trust
    « Reply #1 on: January 20, 2014, 10:07:52 PM »
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  • I would say that's a good assessment of traditional Catholics and trust, especially concerning Pope Francis and the Vatican in particular. Throughout the Church, trust depends now on who can be seen to direct souls toward salvation or damnation if what they say and do are in conformity with the Catholic faith.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Offline Man of the West

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    Traditionalists and Trust
    « Reply #2 on: January 21, 2014, 03:07:31 AM »
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  • In addition to trust, one could also discuss this topic under the heading of ethics, that is to say, the science of how we are to live prudently, happily, and virtuously in the world.

    Christ and his Church make a number of absolute claims on the soul: faith absolutely necessary for salvation, absolute acceptance of revealed doctrine, absolute moral perfection, etc.

    But how does one really live that life? What is it supposed to look like? What is it supposed to feel like? How does anybody know, especially in this day and age when there are so few living exemplars, and when Traditional Catholics already feel like an endangered species?

    It should not be surprising that some people who earnestly set out on the path of Christian perfection develop a siege mentality. If they have accepted literally Christ's call to holiness, then we should assume they're acting in good faith. If there is something incorrect about their approach, it's probably because in their minds they have cathected the absolutizing imperative to the wrong object.

    Psychological trauma easily does this to a person, and the devil loves to trouble further already troubled souls. Wrestling against one's sinful tendencies and feelings of guilt can drive one to the brink of despair, for instance. Also it is hardly unheard of for people to compensate for any real or imagined personal inadequacies with an excess of religious devotion. These are just two examples; it would not be difficult to think of many more. And even when such people realize that maybe their lifestyle isn't working out too well for them, they have on their side the explicit teaching of the Church that the number of the elect will be few, that such as who are approved of God will suffer in this life, and that it is necessary to forsake this world for the Kingdom of God. So did many of the saints suffer in loneliness, and aren't we called to be saints?

    On the other hand, the mere act of bringing psychology into the discussion raises the equal and opposite danger, i.e. that of believing that the faith, even at its best, is only a primitive form of therapy and has no other function but to smooth over the sharp corners of life. But Catholics are usually well fortified against that error, so much so that the very suggestion that they ought to happier might provoke a determined resolution to remain in misery. It starts the cycle of doubt all over again.

    For the record, I do not believe that this description applies to most Traditional Catholics. I do not believe in the myth of the socially awkward Trad. Most of the Trads I know are very well adjusted and happy, especially the young ones. But a lot of them also seem somewhat naïve and I wonder to what degree their faith has really been tested. After all why shouldn't they be happy? They probably grew up in good homes, they had parents who didn't abuse them, who gave them the milk of faith from an early age, who kept them safe from serious sin and its consequences and from the more deranged aspects of the culture. It may be that they got to their present condition of happiness quite easily.

    The description applies a fortiori to horribly abused, betrayed, ghetto-extracted melancholic literary converts like me. I can't decide whether I feel more like the Catholic Good Will Hunting or the Catholic Mogli who just stumbled into the man-village. I really do struggle with all of this stuff. But so would, I believe, many people out there in the "mission field," those whom we should be working to convert. They have been damaged by sin and by the culture; and the more damaged they are, the more they will be feeling pain and looking for answers and expecting to get them from the Church.

    It is impossible to get to the bottom of doubt by mere thinking, for there is no end to the parenthetical nesting of paranoid premises. This is why ethics is so important. I have actually planned to write a few posts on this topic -- confessions really -- which will hopefully help both me and others.
    Confronting modernity from the depths of the human spirit, in communion with Christ the King.

    Offline clare

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    Traditionalists and Trust
    « Reply #3 on: January 21, 2014, 03:21:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    I believe the Recognize and Resist position is somewhere in the middle. Below that, you have the Resistance...

    Doesn't the Resistance essentially Recognise and Resist? Or is it that it's a mixture of those who do and those who don't?

    Offline soulguard

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    « Reply #4 on: January 21, 2014, 03:26:09 AM »
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  • I noticed that there is a common lack of trust between the SSPX who pray "for the holy father ( whats holy about him?)" and Sedevacantists. The SSPX accuse the sedevacantists of being "liberals" cut from the same material as protestants.
    These are frankly disgusting beliefs. I go to SSPX mass but I dont go around saying that I am a sedevacanist. The recognise and resisters dont seem to want to acknowledge that the sedes are just as Catholic as they are. They accuse them of staying away from mass because the R&Rs are heretics, but dont the SSPX do the same thing by staying away from a valid novus ordo mass?
    The SSPX and R&Rs have to one day admit that their pope is an irritant and that traditional catholiics wont be able to follow him. He could be freemason for all you know.


    Offline OHCA

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    « Reply #5 on: January 22, 2014, 11:04:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    I noticed that there is a common lack of trust between the SSPX who pray "for the holy father ( whats holy about him?)" and Sedevacantists. The SSPX accuse the sedevacantists of being "liberals" cut from the same material as protestants.
    These are frankly disgusting beliefs. I go to SSPX mass but I dont go around saying that I am a sedevacanist. The recognise and resisters dont seem to want to acknowledge that the sedes are just as Catholic as they are. They accuse them of staying away from mass because the R&Rs are heretics, but dont the SSPX do the same thing by staying away from a valid novus ordo mass?
    The SSPX and R&Rs have to one day admit that their pope is an irritant and that traditional catholiics wont be able to follow him. He could be freemason for all you know.


    Are you drunk?

    Nevermind that your pope ain't real--why don't you go to that "mass" confected by that other pope who wasn't real?  Do you realize that this is what you're saying?  Do you even slow down to think about what you say?

    I take your posts about as serious as I do those of InfiniteFaith, Poche, and Hirschie.

    Offline soulguard

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    « Reply #6 on: January 23, 2014, 04:37:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA
    Quote from: soulguard
    I noticed that there is a common lack of trust between the SSPX who pray "for the holy father ( whats holy about him?)" and Sedevacantists. The SSPX accuse the sedevacantists of being "liberals" cut from the same material as protestants.
    These are frankly disgusting beliefs. I go to SSPX mass but I dont go around saying that I am a sedevacanist. The recognise and resisters dont seem to want to acknowledge that the sedes are just as Catholic as they are. They accuse them of staying away from mass because the R&Rs are heretics, but dont the SSPX do the same thing by staying away from a valid novus ordo mass?
    The SSPX and R&Rs have to one day admit that their pope is an irritant and that traditional catholiics wont be able to follow him. He could be freemason for all you know.


    Are you drunk?

    Nevermind that your pope ain't real--why don't you go to that "mass" confected by that other pope who wasn't real?  Do you realize that this is what you're saying?  Do you even slow down to think about what you say?

    I take your posts about as serious as I do those of InfiniteFaith, Poche, and Hirschie.


    I dont care what you say you moderated.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Traditionalists and Trust
    « Reply #7 on: January 23, 2014, 11:24:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    I see Tradition as a ladder of trust.

    On the top-most rung of the ladder, you have those in the Novus Ordo who wear rose-colored glasses and think everything is OK and on the up-and-up. They make excuses for everything and everyone, to a ridiculous degree. Example: defending the words and writings of Pope Francis.

    Then you have countless rungs in the middle.

    The bottom-most rung of the ladder is a complete lack of trust. At this point, Catholics become home-aloners and consider themselves The Last Catholic, or one of a literal handful of true Catholics left alive. They believe the Second Coming is imminent, and they believe that Mass and the Sacraments are now impossible due to lack of priests. Somehow they don't realize that their perceived "failure" of the Church is a failure of Christ's promise.

    I believe the Recognize and Resist position is somewhere in the middle. Below that, you have the Resistance, and somewhere below that you have Sedevacantism. Below that is dogmatic Sedevacantism and conclavist Sedevacantism.

    This idea was first put in my head by another Matthew, who also spent time at the SSPX seminary and was actually in my class!
    [/quot

    Is that the Mathew from Chicago?
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    « Reply #8 on: January 23, 2014, 11:49:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    I noticed that there is a common lack of trust between the SSPX who pray "for the holy father ( whats holy about him?)"


    That is why it should be written capitalized, as in Holy Father, because  the word holy is not technically used as an adjective on the person, but is an adjective for the office that it holds.  Like a priest is called Fr. but he really isn't a father in the sense that he fathered children, and when we call them Fr. we do so with a capital F.

    Offline ggreg

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    « Reply #9 on: January 23, 2014, 01:09:38 PM »
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  • Why not make your own ladder with one rung?

    That way you'll know when you have fallen off.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #10 on: January 23, 2014, 05:37:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    Why not make your own ladder with one rung?

    That way you'll know when you have fallen off.


    A good idea but it would exclude the "trust" factor.   :wink:


    Offline 2Vermont

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    « Reply #11 on: January 23, 2014, 05:53:16 PM »
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  • Trust/Lack of Trust in who?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #12 on: January 25, 2014, 10:47:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Trust/Lack of Trust in who?


    Because many Trads lived through the destruction of Vatican II and it's aftermath, they are constantly on the look out for that destruction to follow them into the Trad Catholic Chapels.  That's the "Trust" issue.

    So many Trads beseech God in prayer searching for answers to the desolation all around them in the Church.  Trads like to poke fun at the conciliar church and the monstrosities therein because they are haunted by the deception of the conciliar church in action.  The conciliarists are like frightening demons possessing buildings where once the Mass of All Time was offered up to God.      


    Offline Frances

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    « Reply #13 on: January 26, 2014, 03:01:10 AM »
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  •  :dancing-banana:
    Those who remember Vat. II and are hyper-vigilant to avoiding its repeat in Tradition are fewer and fewer in number.  How young do you have to be to have personally suffered through Vat. II?  Age 60?  Which means most are older than 60.  With very few exceptions, I see one of two reactions among this age group.  Most are in denial and willingly "not see" the elephant on the couch.  A smaller group sees it, but no longer have the inner and outer resources to deal with it.  As a friend, age 62 said to me regarding the decision to stay home alone, "I can't go through it [V2] again."  An even smaller group, very few, indeed, has reenlisted in the battle.  
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #14 on: January 26, 2014, 05:39:27 PM »
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  • 62 is the new 30!   :wink:

    Every novus ordite who visits an SSPX chapel or watches the video "What We Have Lost and the Road to Restoration" is a victim of Vatican II, they just hadn't yet figured out what was always gnawing at their consciences in the novus ordo.  Some victims are in their 60's and saw it first hand while other precious souls are wondering why they feel so empty with what passes for the church today.