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Author Topic: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?  (Read 2224 times)

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Offline ralgul

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Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2020, 01:09:42 PM »
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    • Interesting thread.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #16 on: March 12, 2020, 03:22:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on March 12, 2020, 05:01:39 AM
    It was only after the bull that torture was used in the inquisition courts, so historically people interpreted it as allowing physical force, which could rightly be described as torture. Tearing off nails, strapado, branding, whipping, water torture, etc. All of these use force but dont break bones.. Wouldnt you classify these as torture?
    I started to answer last night but lost it and it was too late so I gave up. Thankfully Mith has come up with wise answers here. I would say that those you have listed amount to torture.

    There is a Tan book in my bookshelf, William Walsh's "Characters of the Inquisition", which you have stirred me to read.
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    Offline Ascetik

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #17 on: March 12, 2020, 06:22:34 PM »
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    Offline TradPapist

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #18 on: October 24, 2020, 05:58:18 PM »
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    • To paraphrase the American constitutional question: is "torture" to mean punishment or a method to extract information? Start from that premise and work backward. Either way, this discussion is a waste of time because NOBODY is torturing anyone under secular or ecclesiastical authorities in the West.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #19 on: October 24, 2020, 06:30:48 PM »
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    • Again with the "lesser evil"?  This must be rejected as contrary to core Catholic moral principles, where evils cannot be done even if to prevent a greater evil or bring about a greater good.

    Too much of this utilitarian thinking has penetrated the minds of Catholics, thanks mostly to the question of voting.

    Pain is not an evil, per se.  Is the infliction of pain intrinsically evil?  No.  Church has always taught that it is permitted to inflict pain for reasons of justice, i.e. just punishment.  Corporal punishment of children is permitted.  So if someone is withholding information that justice requires that they produce, it should be considered licit.

    Now, there must be a proportionality between the degree of pain inflicted and the gravity of the information being unjustly withheld by the subject.  I cannot start putting bamboo underneath children's fingernails to find out who stole a cookie from the cookie jar.  But if someone is privy to information about a terrorist attack that could kill millions, then I don't see why there would be limits.  In a way, it's almost like the use of force in the defense of innocents.  If I can take a gun and shoot someone attacking an innocent person, I can torture someone to extract information about a terrorist attack.

    So between ...
    1) inflicting pain is not inherently evil and
    2) there's a right and duty to defend others against harm and other injustice and
    3) the injustice of withholding information of this nature

    a proportional amount of torture should be considered licit.

    Obviously, there can be abuse here, and it should be strictly regulated by authorities according to Catholic principles ... as someone cited earlier that it was.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #20 on: October 24, 2020, 06:33:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ascetik on March 12, 2020, 06:22:34 PM
    This article explains it well

    http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1062

    This is wrong thinking from a Novus Ordo source, citing the "Catechism of the Catholic Church [sic]".  JP2 has condemned the use of capital punishment also, which has Traditionally always been considered licit, and even required by justice, in Church teaching.

    This article is total garbage.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #21 on: October 25, 2020, 05:05:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 24, 2020, 06:30:48 PM
    Again with the "lesser evil"?  This must be rejected as contrary to core Catholic moral principles, where evils cannot be done even if to prevent a greater evil or bring about a greater good.

    Too much of this utilitarian thinking has penetrated the minds of Catholics, thanks mostly to the question of voting.

    Pain is not an evil, per se.  Is the infliction of pain intrinsically evil?  No.  Church has always taught that it is permitted to inflict pain for reasons of justice, i.e. just punishment.  Corporal punishment of children is permitted.  So if someone is withholding information that justice requires that they produce, it should be considered licit.

    Now, there must be a proportionality between the degree of pain inflicted and the gravity of the information being unjustly withheld by the subject.  I cannot start putting bamboo underneath children's fingernails to find out who stole a cookie from the cookie jar.  But if someone is privy to information about a terrorist attack that could kill millions, then I don't see why there would be limits.  In a way, it's almost like the use of force in the defense of innocents.  If I can take a gun and shoot someone attacking an innocent person, I can torture someone to extract information about a terrorist attack.

    So between ...
    1) inflicting pain is not inherently evil and
    2) there's a right and duty to defend others against harm and other injustice and
    3) the injustice of withholding information of this nature

    a proportional amount of torture should be considered licit.

    Obviously, there can be abuse here, and it should be strictly regulated by authorities according to Catholic principles ... as someone cited earlier that it was.

    Good points. I never thought of it that way. So much of the modern world's teaching is assumed right off the bat, but it actually shouldn't be.
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #22 on: October 25, 2020, 05:09:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on March 09, 2020, 08:48:27 PM
    Vatican II has been torture..it is torture.  
    👏 😅
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #23 on: October 25, 2020, 03:28:32 PM »
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    • I read that the Church had inquisitions for the Jєω pretenders. Like Prison.  Jєωs were always trying to get to the Popes position. In the City of God, volume 4, once St. Stephen martyred, the Demons went back to hell to have a meeting for new strategies, one being just this.  So, Holy Mother Church was on the alert since day one, for pretender Jєωs.  Church was said to have said, "We do not protect or support Jєωs".

    Question is, when did this stop.  I read that after Pius X, this is when it stopped. It being "WE do not protect or support Jєωs".  So, the "New church" became quiet, or I wonder if there was pressure, sure, why not.
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    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #24 on: October 31, 2020, 09:42:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 24, 2020, 06:30:48 PM
    Again with the "lesser evil"?  This must be rejected as contrary to core Catholic moral principles, where evils cannot be done even if to prevent a greater evil or bring about a greater good.

    Too much of this utilitarian thinking has penetrated the minds of Catholics, thanks mostly to the question of voting.

    Pain is not an evil, per se.  Is the infliction of pain intrinsically evil?  No.  Church has always taught that it is permitted to inflict pain for reasons of justice, i.e. just punishment.  Corporal punishment of children is permitted.  So if someone is withholding information that justice requires that they produce, it should be considered licit.

    Now, there must be a proportionality between the degree of pain inflicted and the gravity of the information being unjustly withheld by the subject.  I cannot start putting bamboo underneath children's fingernails to find out who stole a cookie from the cookie jar.  But if someone is privy to information about a terrorist attack that could kill millions, then I don't see why there would be limits.  In a way, it's almost like the use of force in the defense of innocents.  If I can take a gun and shoot someone attacking an innocent person, I can torture someone to extract information about a terrorist attack.

    So between ...
    1) inflicting pain is not inherently evil and
    2) there's a right and duty to defend others against harm and other injustice and
    3) the injustice of withholding information of this nature

    a proportional amount of torture should be considered licit.

    Obviously, there can be abuse here, and it should be strictly regulated by authorities according to Catholic principles ... as someone cited earlier that it was.
    On a related subject we can see that logically speaking mutilations carried out by the state would seem to appear to be justified since capital punishment is justified.  If the state has the moral authority to take a person's life in certain circuмstances it would apparently have the right to take something lesser than his life such as his hand, his eye or his capacity to reproduce by way of castration. 
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #25 on: October 31, 2020, 03:09:55 PM »
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    • One cannot perform an objectively evil act, even if the end is good.
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    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #26 on: November 01, 2020, 05:31:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on October 31, 2020, 03:09:55 PM
    One cannot perform an objectively evil act, even if the end is good.
    Calling out for input from one, two, or all three of CathInfo's ex-seminarian in-house theological periti  (i.e., Lad, Sean or Matthew)!  What say yea?  Does the state have the moral authority to castrate or end the use of a person's hand by chopping it off if that same state has the authority to deprive one of his life under certain circuмstances?  (Apparently, it is not certain that Origin actually castrated himself, but in any event that is a separate issue than the one that is being posed here.  I understand that if he had castrated himself that would not be an objectively justified act.)
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #27 on: November 01, 2020, 06:12:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on October 31, 2020, 03:09:55 PM
    One cannot perform an objectively evil act, even if the end is good.

    I already addressed this.  Inflicting pain on someone is not intrinsically evil.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #28 on: November 01, 2020, 06:16:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: klasG4e on November 01, 2020, 05:31:02 PM
    Calling out for input from one, two, or all three of CathInfo's ex-seminarian in-house theological periti  (i.e., Lad, Sean or Matthew)!  What say yea?  Does the state have the moral authority to castrate or end the use of a person's hand by chopping it off if that same state has the authority to deprive one of his life under certain circuмstances?  (Apparently, it is not certain that Origin actually castrated himself, but in any event that is a separate issue than the one that is being posed here.  I understand that if he had castrated himself that would not be an objectively justified act.)

    I believe that the state would have that right.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Traditional Catholic teaching on torture?
    « Reply #29 on: November 01, 2020, 06:31:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on October 25, 2020, 05:05:35 AM
    Good points. I never thought of it that way. So much of the modern world's teaching is assumed right off the bat, but it actually shouldn't be.
    Yup. Torture has been practiced by every human society since the beginning of time, and no one, either pagan, heretic or Catholic ever claimed it was immoral until the Enlightenment. That by itself should answer this question.
    .

    Quote
    So much of the modern world's teaching is assumed right off the bat, but it actually shouldn't be.

    .
    No kidding. Society today is filled with errors that not only were not held before the Enlightenment, or in some cases the Reformation, but that no sane human being ever even imagined before that time. The idea that torture is intrinsically evil is one of them. Likewise the idea that capital punishment is evil, that spanking your child is evil, that hitting an animal is evil, that drinking wine is evil, that gambling is evil, that being a monarch is evil, and I could go on. Pure insanity, all of it, and evidence that, as humanity approaches the end of its lifespan, it more and more loses its grip on reality and the nature of things.
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