Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: OldMerry on August 11, 2015, 12:03:15 AM
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Does anyone know if there are any Native Americans (American Indians) who are traditional Catholic? By this I mean, any descendants of the converts of St. Isaac Jogues, or of Fr. de Smet, etc. There is such a comeback now of Native American culture - the paganism and false worship - that it is never mentioned that any of them who were Catholic are keeping their traditional Catholic faith.
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Here is some information on the national shrine of St Kateri Tekakwitha, the lily of the Mohawks.
http://katerishrine.com/
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Thank you, Poche. But I actually was meaning modern Indians - if, say, there are any 2015 traditional Catholic Indians, groups or chapels.
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Here is some information on the national shrine of St Kateri Tekakwitha, the lily of the Mohawks.
http://katerishrine.com/
Is the Traditional Latin Mass offered at the shrine's chapel, Poche? The website says nothing about it.
Here's a video showing the interior of the chapel. It doesn't look particularly Traditional to me, what with the undignified wooden table altar, wooden tabernacle (or "Box for communion" as the devout and learned videographer puts it) placed off to the side, and pagan, New-Age "dream catchers" placed conspicuously in the nave.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/Qytc9XKoDdk[/youtube]
If they really wanted to honor Kateri Tekakwitha, why didn't they do so by building a chapel that looks like the kind of Catholic chapels she would have been to in her life (which, you can be sure, were not festooned with "dream catchers"), or offer the Immemorial Mass which would have been the only Mass she'd ever known?
Why? Because this whole thing has far less to do with honoring Kateri Tekakwitha than it does with using her name as an excuse to promote abominations like pagan syncretism and religious indifferentism (and the Novus Ordo itself, of course).
So were you acting ignorantly, or deceptively, by posting this in response to a question specifically about Traditional Catholic American Indian groups, Poche?
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In 1959, the Shrine at Auriesville had 3 Masses a day. I found an old coloring book at a garage sale around here for my children. I can't find the book right now, but we read it together. Apparently it was a spectacular place.
Today, it is a pilgrimage site, but traditional groups are not allowed to say Masses there unless they have pre-approval and only outside in certain areas. The SSPX from here makes a pilgrimage there every year.
Last year, at St. Kateri's shrine, the Native Americans made a big bru-ha-ha about her canonization. Most were overjoyed, but the festivities were a mixture of Native American pagan rituals and NO ecuмenism---nothing that would have pleased St. Kateri.
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Miami Indians were Catholic. French Canadian Indians, catholic. The Miamis chief was buried at Mt Calvary cemetery about the turn of the 1900's. No longer. But maybe in Canada.
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I am of Lakota Sioux descent, but I am a convert (2012) and have very few connections to my tribe. My great-grandfather was kidnapped off his reservation by Yankee soldiers around the turn of the century and was raised in a Presbyterian household.
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Is the Traditional Latin Mass offered at the shrine's chapel, Poche? The website says nothing about it.
According to Summorum Pontificem if a group of atholics requests the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass then it has to be provided to them. If a request is made in an appropriate manner I don't see why not.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html
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Here's a video showing the interior of the chapel. It doesn't look particularly Traditional to me, what with the undignified wooden table altar, wooden tabernacle (or "Box for communion" as the devout and learned videographer puts it) placed off to the side, and pagan, New-Age "dream catchers" placed conspicuously in the nave.
In the 17h century, many of the churches and chapels of the missionaries were log cabins and the tabernacles were made of wood.
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Here's a video showing the interior of the chapel. It doesn't look particularly Traditional to me, what with the undignified wooden table altar, wooden tabernacle (or "Box for communion" as the devout and learned videographer puts it) placed off to the side, and pagan, New-Age "dream catchers" placed conspicuously in the nave.
In the 17h century, many of the churches and chapels of the missionaries were log cabins and the tabernacles were made of wood.
And festooned with dream catchers?
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Dreamcatchers?! They are a neo-pagan occult symbol, plain and simple.
the festivities were a mixture of Native American pagan rituals and NO ecuмenism---nothing that would have pleased St. Kateri.
I like how you phrased that, CathMomof7.
Tyler, what brought you to the Faith, particularly tradition? And pardon my dense head, but I don't know what this means "raised in a ####ian household."
Do you mind spelling it out?
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Is the Traditional Latin Mass offered at the shrine's chapel, Poche? The website says nothing about it.
According to Summorum Pontificem if a group of atholics requests the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass then it has to be provided to them. If a request is made in an appropriate manner I don't see why not.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html
You can always depend upon Poche to toe the party line, eve when - especially when - reality is at odds with it.
I've seen - and, in my more naïve days, taken part in - several group attempts to have the TLM provided at NO parishes - including my mother's parish (where I received all my first Sacraments). Each time these were answered with polite form letters telling us, in essence, to bugger off.
I was also a witness to what occurred at the Church of Our Saviour in NYC, where Fr. Rutler had perhaps the best-attended TLM in the city. Then, when Cardinal Dolan ousted him, and appointed a successor more amenable to the current Bergoglian atmosphere, one of the first orders of business was to put an end to the TLM at Our Saviour, despite (or more accurately, because of) the fact that there was a very large, very stable group there attending the Mass.
So, please, Poche... Save the "According to Summorum Pontificuм" BS for someone who hasn't seen the wheels of the Conciliar Machine in action.
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Dreamcatchers?! They are a neo-pagan occult symbol, plain and simple.
True - that's perhaps the most insulting part. Dream Catchers, while pagan, are not even authentically Red Indian pagan instruments. They might as well be hanging Tangerine Dream albums and yoga mats on the walls.
Tyler, what brought you to the Faith, particularly tradition? And pardon my dense head, but I don't know what this means "raised in a ####ian household."
Do you mind spelling it out?
He probably meant P r e s b y t e r i a n. For reasons I can't explain, I've seen CI censor that word before.
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I first learned about dreamcatchers when I studied Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. Occult through and through.
As to your experience re: Church of Our Savior, that situation still brings me to tears.
(Thank you for explaining the censored word!)
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As to your experience re: Church of Our Savior, that situation still brings me to tears.
Apparently Robert Robbins, the current pastor, in addition to being a manifest Modernist, is also a genuine Iconoclast. He's been systematically stripping that once beautiful church of all of its Icons until now little more than the bare walls remain in the Sanctuary. Pope Gregory III's Condemnations and Anathemas ring down the centuries and convict this heretic, whether he knows it or not.
Fr. Rutler brought that parish out of debt and turned it into - if we must speak in such terms - one of the most financially sound parishes in the Archdiocese. One should not be surprised at all to discover that, since Robbins took over, Our Saviour is once again losing money. Cardinal Dolan may be many things, but a bad businessman is not one of them. What he's done to (and allowed to be done to) the Church of Our Saviour can have only one possible explanation: Namely, that he wants not the thriving parish that was under Fr. Rutler (and which the TLM was overwhelmingly responsible for); he wants the emptying, failed, financially insolvent den of Modernism that Robbins is currently turning it into, which would provide him with the excuse he's looking for to shut the parish down and sell that valuable Park Avenue real estate to the highest bidder.
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BTW, the Dreamcatchers on the walls of the chapel reminded me of nothing so much as banned former CI poster Bruce Ferguson aka "Trickster."
Remember him, circa summer '14? His pet cause was a synthesis of the Catholic Faith (more accurately, the NO) and "Native American Spirituality."
One of my exchanges with him on the subject went thus:
When I talk about aboriginal theology I am only talking about incorporating indigenous symbols, etc into the mass.
Like what?
Feathers on the vestments?
Responding to "Pax Domini sit semper vobiscuм" by lighting up a peace pipe?
Dream Catcher over the Tabernacle?
Totem pole in the Sanctuary (or "communal table space" or whatever you modernists are wont to call it)?
Peddle the snake oil elsewhere. We're not buying.
...Dream catchers are a new artsy phenomenom. I don't remember them growing up, they developed in the 80s or 90s and are more art than anything else...
...So dreamcatchers have a different purpose than what the mass would be about, so they wouldn't be included.
Bruce
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=33222&min=25
So, as we can see, even Trickster Bruce - flaming Modernist pagan inculturator that he was - knew better than to include Dreamcatchers in his panreligious fantasy. Would that those in charge of the St. Kateri Shrine had at least as much sense as he.
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BTNYC said:
he <Card. Dolan> wants the emptying, failed, financially insolvent den of Modernism that Robbins is currently turning it into, which would provide him with the excuse he's looking for to shut the parish down and sell that valuable Park Avenue real estate to the highest bidder.
Ah, that explains it! The modernist argument on it's face didn't make sense to me as to the destruction of a thriving parish, and to the church itself. But this explanation fulfills the "if it doesn't make sense, there's an agenda" piece. This is the agenda. How utterly tragic.
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I remember Bruce "Trickster" well and his affinity for native American spirituality. It may be my naivete, but he seemed oddly genuine, if way off base Catholicism-wise and with his pagan preoccupation, not to mention trying to merge it somehow with the Faith. I pray he is well and finds the Truth he was seeking. Come, Holy Ghost.
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Marxists use white colonialism as a reason for natives to return back to their roots/paganism. Marxists say Christianity is an oppressive colonial religion. This mindset has damned many souls.
Vactican II Popes don't challenge the Marxists. The Popes apologize for the past and become indifferent to paganism . What are Native Americans to think? They must think the Marxists are telling the truth.
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Marxists use white colonialism as a reason for natives to return back to their roots/paganism. Marxists say Christianity is an oppressive colonial religion. This mindset has damned many souls.
Vactican II Popes don't challenge the Marxists. The Popes apologize for the past and become indifferent to paganism . What are Native Americans to think? They must think the Marxists are telling the truth.
What about the danzas to the Blessed Virgin of Guadalupe that have been going on for hundreds of years?
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Is the Traditional Latin Mass offered at the shrine's chapel, Poche? The website says nothing about it.
According to Summorum Pontificem if a group of atholics requests the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass then it has to be provided to them. If a request is made in an appropriate manner I don't see why not.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2007/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html
You can always depend upon Poche to toe the party line, eve when - especially when - reality is at odds with it.
I've seen - and, in my more naïve days, taken part in - several group attempts to have the TLM provided at NO parishes - including my mother's parish (where I received all my first Sacraments). Each time these were answered with polite form letters telling us, in essence, to bugger off.
I was also a witness to what occurred at the Church of Our Saviour in NYC, where Fr. Rutler had perhaps the best-attended TLM in the city. Then, when Cardinal Dolan ousted him, and appointed a successor more amenable to the current Bergoglian atmosphere, one of the first orders of business was to put an end to the TLM at Our Saviour, despite (or more accurately, because of) the fact that there was a very large, very stable group there attending the Mass.
So, please, Poche... Save the "According to Summorum Pontificuм" BS for someone who hasn't seen the wheels of the Conciliar Machine in action.
You have to work with a view to the long term. I remember 35 years ago when there was an efort to get perpetual adoration in the area. Today we have perpetual adoration at teh cathedral, in my parish and in many other areas. You have to be patient, yet persistent. And remember, "no" doesn't mean "no." It just means "not yet."
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You have to be patient, yet persistent. And remember, "no" doesn't mean "no." It just means "not yet."
Well, you're right about that. That's how we got Altar Girls, Lay "Ministers" of Holy Communion, Communion in the hand, and, in just a few more weeks, divorced and "remarried" "Catholics" officially permitted to receive Holy Communion.
What next? Open Sodomites officially permitted to receive Holy Communion? Woman Cadinals?
No (not yet).
Pardon me if I don't have "patience" to wait for the Modernist method of wearing down Church infrastructure until I finally get my way. That's how a spoiled child or a nagging wife operates - not a faithful Catholic who desires what Immemororial Tradition and St. Pius V's Quo Primum established in perpetuity as the One and Only Mass of the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church.
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You have to be patient, yet persistent. And remember, "no" doesn't mean "no." It just means "not yet."
Well, you're right about that. That's how we got Altar Girls, Lay "Ministers" of Holy Communion, Communion in the hand, and, in just a few more weeks, divorced and "remarried" "Catholics" officially permitted to receive Holy Communion.
What next? Open Sodomites officially permitted to receive Holy Communion? Woman Cadinals?
No (not yet).
Pardon me if I don't have "patience" to wait for the Modernist method of wearing down Church infrastructure until I finally get my way. That's how a spoiled child or a nagging wife operates - not a faithful Catholic who desires what Immemororial Tradition and St. Pius V's Quo Primum established in perpetuity as the One and Only Mass of the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church.
Henry VIII wanted the Church to allow him to divorce his first wife so that he could marry a younger and supposedly more beautiful woman and the Church refused to give him an annulment he started his own church, which incidently doesn't have a valid celebration of the Holy Mass.
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What next? Open Sodomites officially permitted to receive Holy Communion?
Nobody is officially permited to receive Holy Communion unless they are free of mortal sin. If the "open sodomite" will make a good confession and renounce his sin then he should be able to receive Holy Communion.
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What next? Open Sodomites officially permitted to receive Holy Communion?
Nobody is officially permited to receive Holy Communion unless they are free of mortal sin. If the "open sodomite" will make a good confession and renounce his sin then he should be able to receive Holy Communion.
Is a person who is divorced and remarried in a state of mortal sin?
If the Synod permits them to receive Holy Communion, what will you say, Poche?
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You have to be patient, yet persistent. And remember, "no" doesn't mean "no." It just means "not yet."
Well, you're right about that. That's how we got Altar Girls, Lay "Ministers" of Holy Communion, Communion in the hand, and, in just a few more weeks, divorced and "remarried" "Catholics" officially permitted to receive Holy Communion.
What next? Open Sodomites officially permitted to receive Holy Communion? Woman Cadinals?
No (not yet).
Pardon me if I don't have "patience" to wait for the Modernist method of wearing down Church infrastructure until I finally get my way. That's how a spoiled child or a nagging wife operates - not a faithful Catholic who desires what Immemororial Tradition and St. Pius V's Quo Primum established in perpetuity as the One and Only Mass of the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church.
Henry VIII wanted the Church to allow him to divorce his first wife so that he could marry a younger and supposedly more beautiful woman and the Church refused to give him an annulment he started his own church, which incidently doesn't have a valid celebration of the Holy Mass.
So what's your point? That he should have had the patience to wait a few centuries for the Synod against the Family 2015 to come along and grant him his wish?
You're the one saying "no" means "not yet," Poche. In my household "no" means "no." Our Lord told us to let our "no" be "no" and our "yes" "yes."
The Church is held to no less a standard. She already said "Yes" definitively to the TLM and "No" to any attempts to replace it. It is to that "Yes" and "No" that I will hold.
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Kateri Tekakwitha's shrine is in the Kahnawake reservation, about 20 minutes' drive from me. There is certainly no TLM or traditionalist community there, very far from it.
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Kateri Tekakwitha's shrine is in the Kahnawake reservation, about 20 minutes' drive from me. There is certainly no TLM or traditionalist community there, very far from it.
So the inferences one might reasonably draw based on the décor of the place (and which Poche, being a constitutionally unreasonable person, would not) would seem to be correct.
Thank you for confirming that, Graham.