Author Topic: toties quoties (Read 3672 times)

Miseremini · « **Reply #15 on:** November 04, 2014, 09:14:47 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Doesn't praying for the intentions of the Holy Father and praying for the intentions of the Church mean the same thing, at least prior to Vatican II. Today for all you know, praying for the intention of Francis, might mean praying for the one world religion to take place before he dies.

Praying for the Holy Father's intentions and the church's are different.

The Pope's intentions are not his own personal intentions but set ones, the same for all the popes.

1) the exaltation of Holy Mother Church
2) the extirpation of heresies
3 )the propogation of the Faith
4 )the conversion of sinners and concord between Christian princes

These 4 intentions have been set for at least 150 years.

Miseremini · « **Reply #16 on:** November 04, 2014, 09:41:18 PM »

For decades past, churches were open all day on Nov 2. so people could visit the cemetary, then the church MULTIPLE TIMES. On Monday even the Novus Ordo churches were open for this purpose in my city.

From the 1957 Raccolt page xvi (under Canons)

b) In order to gain plenary indulgences which are to be obtained as often as the prescribed work is performed, and for which a visit to some church is enjoined, it is necessary and sufficient to say at least six times at EACH VISIT Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory be to the Father. (S.P. Ap., July 5 1930; Acta Ap. Sed., vol. xxii, p.363)

On page 472 number 590 under devout excercises for the faithful departed for Nov 2 it again stresses "as often as they visit a church"

Multiple visits are supposed to be a sacrifice.

However the New Regulations on Indulgences states on page 26 "Yes; only one plenary indulgence can be gained on All Souls' Day".

poche · « **Reply #17 on:** November 04, 2014, 10:31:24 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

What's this "intentions of the Church" stuff?

Actually it is supposed to be for the intentions of the Pope.

poche · « **Reply #18 on:** November 04, 2014, 10:33:30 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

CMRI disinfo causing people to not properly obtain the indulgences?

Of course, the existence of these indulgences depends on whether or not the V2 Popes have been legitimate. If legitimate, then they legitimately eliminated the toties quoties indulgence.

I also think that the Church should have defined a "visit to a church" as only being able to be done once per hour. Absent that, you see these people going in and out of the church doors in an almost bizarre and neurotic fashion -- churches should install revolving doors for this purpose -- to the point that it probably makes Catholics look foolish. Clearly the intent of the "church visit" clause had in mind someone who went out of their way to make a separate "visit" to a church during the day, but this got transformed by the legalists into the absurd revolving-door practice.

With all the people criticizing and complaining about the Pope, they should also be praying for him.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #19 on:** November 04, 2014, 11:10:59 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: MyrnaM
Why not calm down Ladislaus, (and they say we women are emotional) and explain at least to myself, exactly where you feel it is wrong to leave the Church as go back inside and pray again.

I'm perfectly calm, Myrna, and I have already explained it. Clearly the Church's original intent with "visting a church" was that people would go out of their way, take time out of their day, and make a trip to the church. Otherwise, the Church would have just said that if you visit a church you get an indulgence for each set of 6 Paters, etc. It's the legalists (remind me of a Father Cekada) who take the letter (vs. spirit) of the law to inspire this neurotic and silly practice of walking outside the door and then walking right back in as if it were actually a true "visit" in the sense intended by the Church. It's neurotic, stupid, silly ... based on a technicality, and it makes Catholics look like Pharisees ... as if somehow the prayers were less meritorious if someone didn't walk in and out the door.

Thank you Lad, and believe it or not, I do see your point, however today many people have to drive a long time to visit a Church.

I remember when I was a teen, we could and I did visit different Churches, but then I could step out of my home, and walk approx. 4 city blocks in 4 different directions and come to a Catholic Church. My intentions were in the right place, I did the revolving door as you say, but it wasn't that easy, I had to really pay attention to my prayers because there wasn't that break in-between. Maybe it wasn't exactly as the Church intended prior to the apostasy, but I doubt that I sinned.

You have to admit that we are not living in normal times, but in the end God will judge us all by actions and thoughts.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #20 on:** November 05, 2014, 09:04:00 AM »

Quote from: poche

Quote from: Ladislaus
What's this "intentions of the Church" stuff?

Actually it is supposed to be for the intentions of the Pope.

That's my point precisely. Most sedevacantists even realize that the "Intentions of the Holy Father" are very generic ones, are distinct from the general intentions of the Church, and are not the same as Jorge Bergoglio's personal intentions (such as allowing active ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs to receive the Sacraments). For some reason the CMRI swapped out "intentions of the Holy Father" and replaced it with "intentions of the Church", and that's a real problem in terms of vitiating the intention. I also saw the same CMRI stuff copied onto LoT's "DailyCatholic" blog.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #21 on:** November 05, 2014, 09:11:12 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: MyrnaM
Why not calm down Ladislaus, (and they say we women are emotional) and explain at least to myself, exactly where you feel it is wrong to leave the Church as go back inside and pray again.

I'm perfectly calm, Myrna, and I have already explained it. Clearly the Church's original intent with "visting a church" was that people would go out of their way, take time out of their day, and make a trip to the church. Otherwise, the Church would have just said that if you visit a church you get an indulgence for each set of 6 Paters, etc. It's the legalists (remind me of a Father Cekada) who take the letter (vs. spirit) of the law to inspire this neurotic and silly practice of walking outside the door and then walking right back in as if it were actually a true "visit" in the sense intended by the Church. It's neurotic, stupid, silly ... based on a technicality, and it makes Catholics look like Pharisees ... as if somehow the prayers were less meritorious if someone didn't walk in and out the door.

Thank you Lad, and believe it or not, I do see your point, however today many people have to drive a long time to visit a Church.

I remember when I was a teen, we could and I did visit different Churches, but then I could step out of my home, and walk approx. 4 city blocks in 4 different directions and come to a Catholic Church. My intentions were in the right place, I did the revolving door as you say, but it wasn't that easy, I had to really pay attention to my prayers because there wasn't that break in-between. Maybe it wasn't exactly as the Church intended prior to the apostasy, but I doubt that I sinned.

You have to admit that we are not living in normal times, but in the end God will judge us all by actions and thoughts.

No, I didn't say it was a sin. I just think it's weird, silly, and borderline neurotic to keep walking in and out of the church. There's no reason the Church couldn't have just said that if you visit a church you could get a plenary indulgence for each set of prayers that you offer, WITHOUT HAVING TO WALK OUTSIDE each time. That indulgence needed to be rewritten. I'm sure that the Protestants would find much room for ridicule to see Catholics going in and out of the same church; it does come across as borderline superstitious or something. If I were in charge, I'd rewrite it as follows: "If you visit a church on All Souls Day and pray the Stations of the Cross, you receive a plenary indulgence applicable to the souls in Purgatory for each station, or if you pray the Rosary you get a plenary indulgence for each decade. After the entire stations and the entire 15-decade Rosary, you would then offer the prayers for the Holy Father." Something like that.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #22 on:** November 05, 2014, 09:13:32 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: poche
Quote from: Ladislaus
What's this "intentions of the Church" stuff?

Actually it is supposed to be for the intentions of the Pope.

That's my point precisely. Most sedevacantists even realize that the "Intentions of the Holy Father" are very generic ones, are distinct from the general intentions of the Church, and are not the same as Jorge Bergoglio's personal intentions (such as allowing active ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs to receive the Sacraments). For some reason the CMRI swapped out "intentions of the Holy Father" and replaced it with "intentions of the Church", and that's a real problem in terms of vitiating the intention. I also saw the same CMRI stuff copied onto LoT's "DailyCatholic" blog.

That is because CMRI is honest enough to see, that the Chair is empty of a Pope, as you know. We are not living in normal times. I can just imagine what you would be saying if we claim the Chair is empty, and they pray TODAY, for the Popes intention. LOL!

Thank God, that God will judge us, not hypocrites.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #23 on:** November 05, 2014, 09:14:46 AM »

Quote from: Miseremini

Multiple visits are supposed to be a sacrifice.

But against the true spirit of the law. Walking out the door and back in is just plain stupid. Another thing that could be stipulated would be that you couldn't visit the same church twice in a row.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #24 on:** November 05, 2014, 09:16:21 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: poche
Quote from: Ladislaus
What's this "intentions of the Church" stuff?

Actually it is supposed to be for the intentions of the Pope.

That's my point precisely. Most sedevacantists even realize that the "Intentions of the Holy Father" are very generic ones, are distinct from the general intentions of the Church, and are not the same as Jorge Bergoglio's personal intentions (such as allowing active ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs to receive the Sacraments). For some reason the CMRI swapped out "intentions of the Holy Father" and replaced it with "intentions of the Church", and that's a real problem in terms of vitiating the intention. I also saw the same CMRI stuff copied onto LoT's "DailyCatholic" blog.

That is because CMRI is honest enough to see, that the Chair is empty of a Pope, as you know. We are not living in normal times. I can just imagine what you would be saying if we claim the Chair is empty, and they pray TODAY, for the Popes intention. LOL!

Thank God, that God will judge us, not hypocrites.

Yeah, but most sedevacantists didn't get this wrong, like they do. If you have CMRI contacts, you should probably ask them to change this. They may be ruining a lot of indulgences that could have been obtained.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #25 on:** November 05, 2014, 09:19:00 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Miseremini
Multiple visits are supposed to be a sacrifice.

But against the true spirit of the law. Walking out the door and back in is just plain stupid. Another thing that could be stipulated would be that you couldn't visit the same church twice in a row.

Ladislaus it may seem stupid to you, but I remember learning that in Catholic history, many saints were asked to do "stupid" things by their superiors and because the things they were asked were not sinful, they obeyed, and God rewarded them.

Next year if I am still here and able will obey and perform the "revolving door" again, because it is the Will of God to do so, and maybe it makes no sense to you, but it does to me.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #26 on:** November 05, 2014, 09:20:58 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: MyrnaM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: poche
Quote from: Ladislaus
What's this "intentions of the Church" stuff?

Actually it is supposed to be for the intentions of the Pope.

That's my point precisely. Most sedevacantists even realize that the "Intentions of the Holy Father" are very generic ones, are distinct from the general intentions of the Church, and are not the same as Jorge Bergoglio's personal intentions (such as allowing active ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs to receive the Sacraments). For some reason the CMRI swapped out "intentions of the Holy Father" and replaced it with "intentions of the Church", and that's a real problem in terms of vitiating the intention. I also saw the same CMRI stuff copied onto LoT's "DailyCatholic" blog.

That is because CMRI is honest enough to see, that the Chair is empty of a Pope, as you know. We are not living in normal times. I can just imagine what you would be saying if we claim the Chair is empty, and they pray TODAY, for the Popes intention. LOL!

Thank God, that God will judge us, not hypocrites.

Yeah, but most sedevacantists didn't get this wrong, like they do. If you have CMRI contacts, you should probably ask them to change this. They may be ruining a lot of indulgences that could have been obtained.

God has the last word, and maybe we should all be looking into what the word, 'INTENTION" really means in our day. Just a suggestion.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** November 05, 2014, 09:28:52 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: MyrnaM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: poche
Quote from: Ladislaus
What's this "intentions of the Church" stuff?

Actually it is supposed to be for the intentions of the Pope.

That's my point precisely. Most sedevacantists even realize that the "Intentions of the Holy Father" are very generic ones, are distinct from the general intentions of the Church, and are not the same as Jorge Bergoglio's personal intentions (such as allowing active ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs to receive the Sacraments). For some reason the CMRI swapped out "intentions of the Holy Father" and replaced it with "intentions of the Church", and that's a real problem in terms of vitiating the intention. I also saw the same CMRI stuff copied onto LoT's "DailyCatholic" blog.

That is because CMRI is honest enough to see, that the Chair is empty of a Pope, as you know. We are not living in normal times. I can just imagine what you would be saying if we claim the Chair is empty, and they pray TODAY, for the Popes intention. LOL!

Thank God, that God will judge us, not hypocrites.

Yeah, but most sedevacantists didn't get this wrong, like they do. If you have CMRI contacts, you should probably ask them to change this. They may be ruining a lot of indulgences that could have been obtained.

God has the last word, and maybe we should all be looking into what the word, 'INTENTION" really means in our day. Just a suggestion.

In order to obtain the indulgences, one must meet all the conditions established by the Church, Myrna.

Miseremini · « **Reply #28 on:** November 05, 2014, 09:31:57 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Miseremini
Multiple visits are supposed to be a sacrifice.

But against the true spirit of the law. Walking out the door and back in is just plain stupid. Another thing that could be stipulated would be that you couldn't visit the same church twice in a row.

I agree; walking out the door and back in is just plain stupid. That is not what we were taught it involved.

We went to the cemetary then to the church EACH TIME. Remember then as now a plenary indulgence is for ONE PERSON ONLY. Therefore the whole action, each time.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #29 on:** November 05, 2014, 10:00:41 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: MyrnaM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: MyrnaM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: poche
Quote from: Ladislaus
What's this "intentions of the Church" stuff?

Actually it is supposed to be for the intentions of the Pope.

That's my point precisely. Most sedevacantists even realize that the "Intentions of the Holy Father" are very generic ones, are distinct from the general intentions of the Church, and are not the same as Jorge Bergoglio's personal intentions (such as allowing active ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs to receive the Sacraments). For some reason the CMRI swapped out "intentions of the Holy Father" and replaced it with "intentions of the Church", and that's a real problem in terms of vitiating the intention. I also saw the same CMRI stuff copied onto LoT's "DailyCatholic" blog.

That is because CMRI is honest enough to see, that the Chair is empty of a Pope, as you know. We are not living in normal times. I can just imagine what you would be saying if we claim the Chair is empty, and they pray TODAY, for the Popes intention. LOL!

Thank God, that God will judge us, not hypocrites.

Yeah, but most sedevacantists didn't get this wrong, like they do. If you have CMRI contacts, you should probably ask them to change this. They may be ruining a lot of indulgences that could have been obtained.

God has the last word, and maybe we should all be looking into what the word, 'INTENTION" really means in our day. Just a suggestion.

In order to obtain the indulgences, one must meet all the conditions established by the Church, Myrna.

Yes, I know including Confession.

We are fortunate in that we have a Church cemetery to walk to, in fact there are two of them, right across the road from each other, one is for the Jesuits who occupied the Mount about 100 years ago.