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Offline Classiccom

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Tobacco and Theology
« on: May 01, 2010, 08:19:35 AM »
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  •   I thought this article was kind of prophetic considering Pope Paul VI 's "smoke of Satan" and also Pope Pius IX's building a cigar factory in 1863. You can't say the Good Lord did not send us tons of warning signals.

    =====================================
     

    New York Times

    Theology and Tobacco.
    Published: October 30, 1860

       
    To detect the secret antagonism that exists between the eternal principles of Christianity and the evanescent smoke that curls from the good man's pipe, might puzzle an Oriental mystagogue or confound the metaphysics of AQUINAS himself. But it has been discovered in our own epoch, and is now authoritatively announced, in this, the fourth year of BUCHANAN, by the General Conference of the M.E. Church of the State of Ohio. The faith of the Ohio Church and the fumes of the Virginia weed are authentically proclaimed to be mutually destructive. The Athanasian creed and the Book of Discipline are the acids in antagonism with the alkali of the Nicotiana Tabacuм; and "full communion" is consequently henceforth incompatible with regalias, maccaboy, or fine-cut cavendish. At the session of the Conference held in Gallipolis a few weeks ago, the following action was taken upon this subject:

    Whereas, The use of tobacco is a great evil, and leads to other evils, therefore,

    Resolved, By the Ohio Conference, that after the present session we will not receive any person into full communion who persists in the use of tobacco.

    This, of course, as everybody knows, is not the first or the hundredth time that absurd and preposterous resolutions on this topic have been adopted by ecclesiastical bodies in different parts of the country, and they might at present, perhaps, be allowed to pass unheeded along with the other impossible legislation of divines who are evidently more familiar with theological logomachies than with the common facts of life and physiology. But as tobacco-cursing, from being a chronic mode in which petty ecclesiastical courts pay their tithes of mint, anise and rue, has now been carried into the highest councils of the church, we could wish that the august conclave who enacted this excommunicatory bull, (for such must be its practical issue,) had also promulgated, for the benefit of the great smoking world, the specific grounds on which such solemn action was based -- whether this new capital sin had its roots directly in morals, or had only indirect relation thereto through physics, sociology, physiology or public economy; for of course they well knew that on all these grounds the legitimate use of the fragrant leaf is upheld by moralists, as well as economists and hygienists, quite as capable and distinguished as the gentlemen of the Ohio Conference. In a moral aspect it is affirmed that its aromatic incense soothes the perturbed spirit, and calms the passionate heart by its tranquillizing influence upon the nerves; that, socially, the pipe or cigar is the symbol and bond of friendship in this country, even as the snuff-box is in Scotland; that, financially, it is an important element of our public wealth, while the forty millions of dollars which the American people themselves annually expend upon it has created a vast and varied home industry; and now within a short time, we have a public letter from Sir BENJAMIN BRODIE, than whom there is no higher medical authority living, on the physiological effects of tobacco, in which, while generally condemning its use, he makes many exceptions in its favor, as thus:

    "It allays the pains of hunger, and relieves the uneasy feelings produced by mental and bodily exhaustion. To the soldier who has passed the night in the trenches, before a beleaguered town, with only a distant prospect of breakfast when the morning has arrived; to the sailor contending with the elements in a storm; to the laborer, after a hard day's work; to the traveler, in an uncultivated region, with an insufficient supply of food, the use of a cigar or a tobacco pipe may be not only a grateful indulgence, but really beneficial. In all ages of which we have any record mankind have been in the habit of resorting to the use of certain vegetable productions, not as contributing to nourishment, but on account of their having some peculiar influence as stimulants or sedatives (or in some other way) on the nervous system. Tobacco, alcohol, the Indian hemp, the kava of the South Sea Islanders, the Paraguay tea, coffee, and even tea, belong to this category. A disposition so universal may almost be regarded as an instinct, and there is sufficient reason to believe that, within certain limits, the indulgence of the instinct is useful."

     Of course, we do not wish to be understood as advocating or upholding smoking, or even maintaining that the use of tobacco is innocuous; we only desire to urge upon grave ecclesiastical bodies, in any future action they may take upon this subject, that, as the New Testament is silent upon the subject, and as the soul's salvation can hardly be imperilled by a cigar, and moreover, as there is still much to be learned in regard to the moral and physiological action of this plant, these extravagant attempts at stopping its use are, at least, of doubtful utility; and, furthermore, to suggest to them that, in this seventh decade of the nineteenth century, the undefined thunders of an ecclesiastical tribunal against pipes and cigars are more likely to evolve the spark that will fire them up, than to force or frighten any one into their discontinuance.

    THE PROSPECT IN NEW-JERSEY. -- Fusion has at last produced its perfect work in New-Jersey. After steadfastly resisting for a creditable number of weeks, the overtures of the Breckinridge and Bell Committees, the Douglas party has descended from its independent isolation, and consented to enlist in the common cause of Anti-Republicanism. Three of its nominees as electors remain upon the ticket; the other four are divided between the Disunion Democrats, the National Union Party, and, strange to say, the Republicans. For if there be any truth in rumor, Mr. EDMUND BREWER, who figures as a Bell elector, is a strenuous advocate of Messrs. LINCOLN and HAMLIN; and will hardly be restrained by any fusion covenants from casting his vote for those candidates, should his colleagues upon the Straight Republican ticket fail of an opportunity to do so. This peculiarity of New-Jersey fusion, that it actually embraces all the factions in the field, is at once an edifying spectacle of brotherly concord, and a proof that union is not impossible, however irreconcilable political elements may seem.

    It is also remarked that in the adjustment of this league, so much of the State as is known by the old colonial and proprietary distinction of West Jersey, has scarcely a place on the ticket. The Southern counties are in fact entirely overlooked; while from counties immediately adjoining New-York, five of the seven are selected. This disproportion can hardly fail to have an injurious effect upon the interests of the coalition. Having distributed their favors more impartially, the Republicans, of course conciliate a wider range of local partialities; and, indeed, if they do not poll a very much heavier vote in the remoter counties, the usual rules of political prognostication are of small value. But beyond this special ground of prophecy, the new league has disadvantages in common with such leagues everywhere A very important vote, heretofore attracted by personal predilections for Mr. DOUGLAS, or adherent to his principles, because of their supposed Anti-Slavery tendency, is thus alienated; and the great bulk of the foreign electors is at once either silenced or driven into the Republican ranks. The loss from these combined sources may not be serious in West Jersey; but in the districts represented by Mr. GARNET B. ADRAIN and Speaker PENNINGTON, they will exert a most salutary influence for the cause of LINCOLN; and, it is to be trusted, will return opposition members to the seats those gentlemen have so worthily occupied. The new combination, therefore, lends encouragement to the Republicans that New-Jersey is to share in the glory, of repressing ѕєdιтισn, mis-true called secession, by aiding in the election of, true conservatives.

    A SLIGHT MISAPREHENSION. -- Quite a number of the Southern papers seem to laboring under the impression that Northern society is constantly on the brink of revolution. A writer in the Charleston Mercury, suggesting means of avoiding a financial crisis in the event of secession, proposes first that the Legislature authorize a suspension of specie payments, and then adds:

    "And, in the event of several of the Cotton States making common cause with us, to compel the Northern cotton manufacturers to send specie to purchase their supply. This course of proceeding would soon bring an immense amount of specie into the vaults of the Southern banks, and thereby enable them to resume specie payments at an early day. The Northern manufacturer must have Cotton or Revolution, and the South surely can dictate the terms upon which that supply can be obtained."

     Cotton or Revolution! We beg our Southern friends to understand that revolutions are neither so common, nor so easily excited, at the North, as they seem to suppose. Great distress may be created by a stoppage of the supplies of Cotton, or of any other commodity which enters into general consumption; -- but the last thing any body would think of as a remedy for such an evil, would be revolution. Society here is too flexible, -- there are too many varieties of employment, and too many reasons still left open when any one is cut off to permit the slightest danger of such a resort.

    It will be well, moreover, for the South to bear in mind that the necessity for them to sell their Cotton, will be quite as great as for us to buy it. It is their main reliance for supplies of every kind. The Cotton States raise comparatively little Wheat, and, as a matter of economy, prefer to buy with Cotton whatever else they need. Their own cotton goods, for themselves and their slaves, are not made at home: -- they buy them of the North. If they will send us no Cotton, they can buy none of these supplies. The question is quite as broad as it is long, -- and, perhaps, a little broader.

    But all this talk about changing the natural course of trade is absurd. The necessities of society are stronger than the resentment of disappointed politicians. And Cotton will grow and be sold and manufactured just as much next year as it has been this.

    SECESSION AT THE SOUTH. -- We have more than once urged that the Southern States never can be brought to cooperate in a disunion movement, unless upon direct and unquestionable provocation. The moment the issue is brought up for discussion, as a practical thing, the majority will be against disunion.

    We see, every day, evidence in support of this opinion, in our Southern exchanges. A recent number of the Charleston Mercury contains a letter from a gentleman in Alabama, who remonstrates against South Carolina's waiting for Alabama to join her in the movement. He says there is a great difference in the condition of the two States. In South Carolina the people are united on this question: they are all for disunion. In Alabama quite a different state of things exists. He says:

    "Alabama is divided. The varieties of soil, and the want of connection between North and South Alabama, prevent us from being one homogeneous people. In the event of LINCOLN's election, Gov. MOORE will call a Convention. There will be a large party in our midst, who will, under the shallow pretext of waiting for an overt act, advocate the most abject submission. This party will be led on by able and eloquent men. In its ranks will be found TAYLOR, LANGDON, DAWSON, FORSYTH, BAKER, and, perhaps, though I think it improbable, JOHN A. WINSTON. It will combine the strength of the Douglas and Bell factions, and will also carry off from, the Breckinridge party all of the foreign vote, and a large proportion of the merchants and trading people. What will be the result of the election for delegates to the Convention, no man can tell. The advocates of resistance, are at this time undoubtedly in the majority, but will they be able to control the State on the first day of next January."

    This certainly exhibits a strong array of opponents to the Disunion movement. If the feeling now, -- in advance of the election and when all parties are equally desirous to secure the defeat of LINCOLN, is so strong against Disunion, it is plain that it will be much stronger after that political motive for its suppression shall have been removed. And what is true of Alabama, is true of every other Southern State -- South Carolina not excepted.

    A CURIOUS SCRUPLE OF CONSCIENCE. -- It is already known that Senator HAMMOND has already authorized the announcement that he is a candidate for reelection to the United States Senate. This has generally been considered evidence that he did not anticipate the immediate dissolution of the Union, or he would scarcely care to go to Washington after that event.

    It seems that Governor GIST has been named as his competitor, -- whereupon he addressed the following letter to the Charleston Mercury;

    To the Editor of the Charleston Mercury:

    Some partial friend, over the signature of "A Citizen," in the Mercury of the 17th inst., having nominated me for United States Senator, "if no dissolution of this Union should take place upon the election of LINCOLN to the Presidency," on the next day another writer, over the signature of "Many Citizens," insists upon the reelection of Senator HAMMOND. To remove all difficulty and silence discussion on the subject, I have no hesitation in saying that I would not serve, if elected Senator, in the contingency alluded to; because I could not truly and properly represent a State that submits to Black Republican rule; and all apprehensions of rivalry with any one may, therefore, be dismissed. WM.H. GIST.

    This nice distinction presents a curious quandary. Gov. GIST will not serve if dissolution does not take place; -- pray what will he do if it does? Does he suppose that South Carolina will still have use for Federal Senators in that contingency? We suspect the Governor had a much more substantial reason than this for declining to be a candidate. There are already so many candidates in the field, that his chance of success would scarcely encourage him to become a competitor. Senator HAMMOND is a strong man, and opposed to secession, except in concert with the whole South. Ex-Speaker ORR is a candidate and supports secession when Georgia Alabama and Mississippi will join the movement. Col. KEITT a candidate and intends to secede "solitary and alone." With such a crowd of aspirants for a place soon to be blotted out forever, Gov. GIST maybe excused for not wishing to enter the race.


    Offline Classiccom

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    « Reply #1 on: May 01, 2010, 08:56:38 AM »
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  •   I found this part fascinating :

    Sir BENJAMIN BRODIE, than whom there is no higher medical authority living, on the physiological effects of tobacco, in which, while generally condemning its use, he makes many exceptions in its favor, as thus:

    "It allays the pains of hunger, and relieves the uneasy feelings produced by mental and bodily exhaustion. To the soldier who has passed the night in the trenches, before a beleaguered town, with only a distant prospect of breakfast when the morning has arrived; to the sailor contending with the elements in a storm; to the laborer, after a hard day's work; to the traveler, in an uncultivated region, with an insufficient supply of food, the use of a cigar or a tobacco pipe may be not only a grateful indulgence, but really beneficial. In all ages of which we have any record mankind have been in the habit of resorting to the use of certain vegetable productions, not as contributing to nourishment, but on account of their having some peculiar influence as stimulants or sedatives (or in some other way) on the nervous system. Tobacco, alcohol, the Indian hemp, the kava of the South Sea Islanders, the Paraguay tea, coffee, and even tea, belong to this category. A disposition so universal may almost be regarded as an instinct, and there is sufficient reason to believe that, within certain limits, the indulgence of the instinct is useful."

    ===============================================

      Its a real shame that the medical establishment and the spiritual establishment (Pope Pius IX ) joined together in their support of this psycho addictive drug. That has been a horrible scourge of mankind, especially in the 20th century through the present. Wasn't  much of a leap of error for Dupont to come up with the slogan "Better Living Through Chemistry". Wasn't much more a leap of error for the public to be riddled with drug abuse problems.

      Tobacco smoke - Isn't that like the burnt vegetable smell offering of Cain ?

      Anybody notice how all the Abel type characters have been killed off in the Roman Catholic Church ?

    ==================================

     The Dupont - Pius IX merger

      Better Christianity through Infalliblility


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #2 on: May 01, 2010, 02:15:14 PM »
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  • Classiccom, the devil is putting connections in your mind that aren't there.  There is no link between the puffing of cigarettes and the lack of Abel characters in the Church.  

    Answer me this and stop evading.  As an Old Catholic, are you for artificial contraception?

    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Classiccom

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    « Reply #3 on: May 01, 2010, 03:51:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Classiccom, the devil is putting connections in your mind that aren't there.  There is no link between the puffing of cigarettes and the lack of Abel characters in the Church.  

    Answer me this and stop evading.  As an Old Catholic, are you for artificial contraception?



    ===================================

     That is about the only good thing the post 1870 Church was able to do right.  I tell Protestants that birth control was universally prohibited by all Christianity until about 1930.   So great, Club Infallible got one thing right.

      Abel offered a sacrifice that was acceptable to God. How many legitimate priests are left  in the world? . The mass and the priesthood rites have been replaced by Satanic counterfeits . Before they could accomplish that they replaced the True Faith with the Club Infallible faith of Pope Pius IX. The faith you are promoting is not a gift from from God to the individual, but rather a system that has devolved in the past 140 years into a satanic power hierarchy and a system of brainwashing.  

       THis is a killer Satanic system that demoralizes and debilitates. One billion members and near zero that fight for the truth ? Eyes, ears, mind, soul, - all come to naught after the Club Infallible treatment. This is Satan's weapon to remove all hope from the heart of mankind.  IF you help Satan in his use of the post Catholic church, then you are not the kind of person I would want to spend an eternity with.

      One reason this sounds like a horrible rant, I am listening to Dr. Carly who has lost her faith, and a bunch of new ex Catholic atheists. Millions have been burned real bad and are leaving in droves. The old trad cath grin and bear it baloney was obviously a very bad stategy. They have next to nothing to show for their efforts. With the kink of thinking of you and your buddies, I don;t see Catholics retaining a shred of their Catholic faith but rather tossing everything in the garbage in getting a new atheist or protestant outfit. And when they leave, they are all telling tales of how happy they are now compared to the crapolla they had to deal with before. The Cath trad movement has a lot to be blamed for not mounting a proper resistance to evil. The reason for that is that they also are not preaching the Christian faith properly.

    ====================================


      Here is another decent person driven away from the RC church. When the Church becomes a wrecking ball for human potential , then it is time to ask the Good Lord to take care of business. How long,  how long ?

    http://www.twowitnesses.us/the_french_connection_04_28.MP3




     

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #4 on: May 01, 2010, 05:06:50 PM »
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  • Replace "club infallible" with "Classicom the Infallible."


    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #5 on: May 01, 2010, 05:11:29 PM »
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  • Classiccom, the Pope was considered to be infallible ( at least when speaking on faith and morals through the Magisterium ) by the majority of theologians long before this was made dogma.  The dogma is that he is infallible when speaking ex cathedra -- who ever would have doubted that?

    You think that people are too obedient and that the dogma of infallibility is what keeps them stuck in the web of the VII spider.  It is the exact opposite.  For centuries now, Catholics have become more and more disobedient.  They didn't listen and they didn't appreciate it when the Church was functioning as it should and must.  They're like kids who want more and more candy so their parents let them eat until they get sick -- it's like God said "Okay, you want to do things your own way?  Go ahead, make yourself sick."  

    When it comes to the Vatican II Popes, you can't listen because what they say makes no sense.  Even if you WANTED to obey them you couldn't!  The people ended up getting the "Church" they deserved, one that would give them essentially free reign to do what they were already going to do anyway.  The Church is often spoken of as a Mother, but with Vatican II, instead of a real mom who disciplines us, we get the "cool mom" who is out on the town every night and leaves us free reign to smoke and drink and have house parties.  If anyone has retained some vestiges of true Catholicism within those structures, it is DESPITE the VII Church and its depraved lackies, not because of it.

    But what is wrong with papal infallibility?  What does that have to do with the problem we are facing?  Papal infallibility is one of the ways we know to be sedevacantist... That is how most of us see it.  Somehow you have slipped through the cracks, which makes me wonder what kind of malign influences you have surrounding you.

    Do you realize that the VII Popes are exactly like you and are pushing for the democratization of the Church?  Considering Jesus is considered a King and Mary a Queen and Michael the Archangel a Prince don't you think perhaps a monarchy and hierarchy is the way it is supposed to be in Christ's true Church?  That's the way it always has been -- Pius IX just made it official, mainly because lots of people infected by democratic ( Masonic ) ideas thought the Church had to keep up with the times and also become democratic, a rising threat that had to be nipped in the bud.  Why on Earth, as someone who is presumably anti-Mason, would you want to be on that side of the fence?
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #6 on: May 01, 2010, 06:26:28 PM »
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  • What is the source for the allegation that Pius IX built a  'cigar factory'? I have never heard of this b4.  :confused1:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #7 on: May 01, 2010, 06:51:21 PM »
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  • More importantly, roscoe...who cares?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #8 on: May 01, 2010, 06:54:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Classiccom
    One reason this sounds like a horrible rant, I am listening to Dr. Carly who has lost her faith, and a bunch of new ex Catholic atheists. Millions have been burned real bad and are leaving in droves.


    They are leaving what you yourself take to be a counterfeit church, so...why are you so worried?

    They should leave...as the homo and pederast crypto-rabbis are finally being exposed for all of their shenanigans with the altar boys, etc.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #9 on: May 01, 2010, 06:56:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Classiccom
    One billion members and near zero that fight for the truth?


    Some probably even smoke!!! :wink:

    Is your campaign against cigars/tobacco what you would style as an heroic fight for the truth?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline CM

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    « Reply #10 on: May 01, 2010, 07:06:11 PM »
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  • Raoul76 has just exposed Classiccom's hypocrisy better than I have ever seen it done before.


    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #11 on: May 01, 2010, 07:12:37 PM »
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  • The allegation has been made that Pius IX built a cigar factory....  please provide source.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #12 on: May 01, 2010, 07:12:54 PM »
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  • Mike is on a roll of late :)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Classiccom

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    « Reply #13 on: May 01, 2010, 07:13:53 PM »
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  • Nuova Fabbrica del Tabacco

          
       Fabbrica del Tabacco   
          
    (above) Façade of the former tobacco factory; (below) detail of the inscription

    This imposing building by Antonio Sarti has a vague resemblance to the Colonnade du Louvre in Paris, owing to its colonnade above a high base. The Latin inscription adds to its importance: PIUS IX P. (ontifex) M. (aximus) OFFICINAM NICOTIANIS FOLIIS ELABORANDIS A SOLO EXTRUXIT ANNO MDCCCLXIII.
    It means that the building was a tobacco factory (Nicotianis foliis is a reference to the tobacco leaves introduced in Europe by French diplomat Jean Nicot). In 1863 Pope Pius IX moved to this site the tobacco factory which had been located near S. Maria dei Sette Dolori. The fountain at the centre of the square was designed by Andrea Busiri Vici in the same period.


    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #14 on: May 01, 2010, 07:30:13 PM »
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  • There is nothing in the above that says anything about cigars.  
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'