Author Topic: Question on Fasting  (Read 783 times)

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Offline Kimchi Ninja

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Question on Fasting
« on: March 26, 2019, 03:39:21 PM »
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  • Does a beverage with a cultured buttermilk like consistency break a fast?
    "Let us pray for each other that our Lord may give us the grace we need to become saints"_ Saint Bernadette

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #1 on: March 26, 2019, 03:51:30 PM »
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  • Does a beverage with a cultured buttermilk like consistency break a fast?
    Maybe not the letter, but probably breaks the spirit.

    Let me tell you a little story...

    At the seminary, there was one seminarian in the year above me who went into town one Ember Wednesday (seminarians could get permission to go into town on Wednesday afternoons, which were allocated to recreation) and bought a milkshake. He basically said "I don't care" and even joked about it.
    Fast forward several years...
    After this young man left the seminary, he completely apostatized from the Faith.
    He also was very sarcastic about everything...like nothing was sacred or serious. One time I was sharing a sheet of funny rock group names I made up (like "Dingo Fortnight") and I commented that during my creative process, I ran my brainstorm of ideas through a mental filter to weed out any dirty or off-color ones. He responded that he preferred no such filter.

    It's interesting, in a bad way, how various Trads lived BEFORE their apostasy.

    Another apostate I know (same first name, oddly enough!) fell because of sins of the flesh. He openly "confessed" to Myspace things he did in his teen years, of which I had no idea. Today he's completely apostate from the Faith, and practices no religion.

    Another apostate I know got into astrology and "red pill anti-Feminism" and become confused and bitter about how to reconcile it all. He suffered a lot from difficulty getting established and finding a good wife. But what destroyed his life -- both secular and spiritual -- and set him on the path away from God, was falling into adultery with a Trad married woman with many children. That totally broke his habit of weekly Mass, after the wronged husband threatened the young man's life.

    All three of these apostates were Traditional Catholics. They would sing in choir and/or serve Mass, pray, and only attended the Tridentine Mass.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #2 on: March 26, 2019, 04:04:21 PM »
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  • Quote
    Does a beverage with a cultured buttermilk like consistency break a fast?
    You could drink that as part of your main meal, or drink it as one of the 2 smaller snacks, but I would think drinking it between meals would break the fast.  The only exceptions for drinks between meals are: coffee, tea and fruit/veggie juices.  This is per the old, pre-V2 fast laws.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #3 on: March 26, 2019, 04:11:13 PM »
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  • Now a separate issue is the necessity, recommendation for fasting every weekday of Lent (as shown on the average Trad calendar, every day of Lent is purple "fast and partial abstinence")

    At the Seminary we would have no dessert at the evening (smaller) meal, the evening meal would be a bit simpler, and breakfast would be cold cereal OR bread, but not both as usual. And there were no snacks available at the 4:00 coffee break.

    Nevertheless, the amount you could eat at those 2 minor meals was left between you, God, and your spiritual director. I saw some seminarians drinking a cup of coffee at breakfast and nothing more. But obviously you A) have to be able to function -- i.e., perform your duties of state, and B) not all bodies are created equal. For that matter, not all souls are in the same exact state regarding each virtue and each vice. That's why the Church leaves the particulars of the general command "Do Penance" up to each one of us.

    In fact, some individuals are downright excused or advised against fasting for health reasons. Luckily there are many other ways to practice mortification. There are many things we can give up or do, plus prayer and almsgiving.

    Of course the Church used to have more mandatory penance, such as fasting during Lent. On the one hand it no longer obliges under pain of sin, but on the other hand we are Traditional Catholics who root for the old disciplines and the destruction and complete rollback of Vatican II and its lax disciplines. How can we truly root for the destruction of Vatican II when part of us kinda likes it or has grown pleasantly used to it? Also, we need to do some corporal mortification to make sure our body remembers who's in charge.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #4 on: March 26, 2019, 04:42:10 PM »
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  • And mortification in general can be motivated by pride.  It's generally unwise to undertake mortifications beyond what the Church (and one's duties of state) imposes without the approval of a spiritual director, who is in a position to determine the motive.

    I saw one particular seminarian agonizing about whether to apply ketchup to some food item (can't remember what it was).  You could see him look at it, reach out for it, pull back his arm, then reach again and stop ... over and over for several minutes ... with a deeply pained expression on his face.  So it was creating a bit of a neurosis for him.  Sometimes scrupulous people can be a little neurotic about allowing themselves "pleasure".  And there's a very fine line between doing this kind of thing out of love for God/souls and doing it out of pride or scruples (which is rooted in pride).

    At one point, St. Francis of Assisi had not eaten meat for many years.  He was a guest at someone's home and was offered meat.  He calmly ate the meat.  Afterwards, one of his brothers asked him whether it bothered him to have blown his streak, as it were.  He calmly replied that he hadn't given it a second thought but would not refuse the meat out of charity for his host.  Now THAT is someone practicing mortification with zero pride.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #5 on: March 26, 2019, 04:55:35 PM »
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  • At one point, St. Francis of Assisi had not eaten meat for many years.  He was a guest at someone's home and was offered meat.  He calmly ate the meat.  Afterwards, one of his brothers asked him whether it bothered him to have blown his streak, as it were.  He calmly replied that he hadn't given it a second thought but would not refuse the meat out of charity for his host.  Now THAT is someone practicing mortification with zero pride.


    I think many Trads need to pay attention to this story.

    Just think about it for more than a few seconds -- a priest could either be like St. Francis and hide his sanctity (single-minded love of God) or be a stick in the mud about it, refuse the meat with much pomp, and develop a cult following among the Faithful for his "holiness". For a priest, who certainly has enough control over his body to reject some meat, being willing to break his "no meat streak" takes much more mortification than doing without meat at a given meal. Especially when pride enters the picture -- every priest wants to have people fawning over him as a holy man of God -- at least deep down, in their lesser nature.

    Again, most priests can handle themselves carnally or they would be no longer practicing priests and/or insane by now.  Besides the obvious celibacy (singleness), they have to go without eating for long periods of time, more than the average layman. And they had to survive the Seminary for 6+ years, which doesn't exactly have an "open fridge" policy. And even at the set mealtimes, there isn't a limitless spread of junk food available for the taking. But pride! That's much more insidious and easy to hide, even under veneer of virtue, piety, and holiness. And pride is much more socially acceptable for a priest (unfortunately).

    I bet I've been that parishioner, hosting a priest and serving him meat, on more than one occasion. I wonder how many priests got to grow in holiness by eating our (very much non-penitential) food so as not to offend us... (No one is ever going to mistake us for vegans.)

    Speaking of food and clergy, I remember when Bp. Williamson said Mass here, during the meal afterwards he casually suggested (with a grin) that I eat a fried chicken drumstick medieval style like finger food -- which I did. He is so down to earth and loves reality. I believe his thinking was something along the lines of, "Don't fumble with that fork to be extra refined in your fried chicken eating on my account. Keep it real."
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #6 on: March 26, 2019, 06:42:32 PM »
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  • There was a joke at the seminary that if you could get it through a straw it did not violate the fast ... and people would joke about putting Big Macs into a blender.  While that was a joke, obviously, they were alluding to some theologians' opinions about the consistency of a substance that was somewhere between liquid and solid.  Some things are in between, such as a milkshake that takes significant effort to suck through a straw ... so they laid out getting it through a straw as the rule of thumb.  And these seminarians ran with it and toyed Jesuitically with the notion by stretching it to absurd lengths.  Part of the joke, too, was that a Big Mac was obviously (well, maybe) made of meat ... which is forbidden between meals anyway.

    There was one theologian who said it was OK to drink beer between meals, since it is in fact a liquid.  But then he added that it's OK to munch on stuff with it to prevent an upset stomach from the beer ... ne potus noceat, lest the drink cause harm.  Now that is Jesuitry at its finest.  Take something that's licit.  If it's licit, then one may perform activities in support of said licit activity, even if per se it's illicit.  It's the same thinking that went into the notion that I can go to Walmart on a Sunday to buy sports equipment.  Since playing sports is licit on a Sunday, they considered it OK to make purchases in support of said licit activity.
    Vigano for Pope !!!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #7 on: March 26, 2019, 07:29:20 PM »
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  • I myself would hold that it's permitted to do activity that would otherwise be illicit only in support of an essential activity.  So, for instance, it's OK to do manual labor in support of eating, i.e. cooking the meal and cleaning up after, but not OK to do an otherwise illicit activity in support of a merely permitted (non-essential) activity.  Now, that would of course preclude things like paying money to attend a sporting event at which people have to work or concerts or other similar events.  So my opinion would be unpopular.
    Vigano for Pope !!!


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #8 on: March 26, 2019, 07:40:26 PM »
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  • Some monks in the middle ages made beer that was full-bodied, nutritious and a meal replacement.  They went on a beer fast the entire lent; each monk was alloted up to 4 liters a day.   

    https://lordsofthedrinks.com/2016/02/11/the-all-beer-diet-german-monks-created-for-the-46-days-of-lent-fast-before-easter/

    https://www.wanderingeducators.com/best/traveling/pious-practice-or-helping-liquid-bread.html

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #9 on: March 26, 2019, 07:43:52 PM »
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  • They went on a beer fast the entire lent; each monk was alloted up to 4 liters a day.  

    They probably looked forward to Lent every year!
    Vigano for Pope !!!

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #10 on: March 26, 2019, 08:48:45 PM »
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  • Liquids were permitted between meals even in the old rules. 

    According to Jone, one of the moral theology manuals from before V2, liquids included milk and chocolate milk, but not malted milk or milk shakes.

    Alcohol was also allowed between meals though Jone says it may break the spirit of Lent.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 09:17:58 PM »
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  • Does a beverage with a cultured buttermilk like consistency break a fast?
    .
    Are you talking about the Eucharistic fast or daily/seasonal fasts?
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 11:03:23 PM »
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  • .
    Are you talking about the Eucharistic fast or daily/seasonal fasts?
    I assumed the OP was asking about the Lenten fast.
    Still, if something like a milkshake was not allowed between meals during Lent, I think it's clear it's considered "food" rather than "liquid", and would be subject to the Eucharistic fast rules for food.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Question on Fasting
    « Reply #13 on: May 07, 2019, 11:18:19 AM »
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  • I assumed the OP was asking about the Lenten fast.
    Still, if something like a milkshake was not allowed between meals during Lent, I think it's clear it's considered "food" rather than "liquid", and would be subject to the Eucharistic fast rules for food.
    .
    This happens to not be the case as the Eucharistic fast is somewhat different and is measured by the "straw rule," at least according to Fr. Connell. 
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