Author Topic: The Way (Read 2821 times)

LaramieHirsch · « **on:** December 08, 2012, 03:05:59 PM »

So, I'm taking a look into Opus Dei--but specifically, I'm reading The Way, by St. Josemaría Escrivá.

Anyone ever read this thing? It's awesome. It's like The Book of Proverbs, Part 2!

http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/the_way.htm

Lighthouse · « **Reply #1 on:** December 08, 2012, 04:16:14 PM »

The answer is to be found in your own signature: "A WICKED PEOPLE CRAVE SUBJUGATION TO AN EVIL TYRANT. "

I became somewhat interested in the Opus Dei charade quite a few years ago. It somehow gives off the glow of traditional gold. Truth is that they are so secretive it's hard to know for sure. There are a few exposes out there speaking of unscrupulous practices mostly of higher order members abusing more pedestrian members in a nearly slave like fashion. There have also been hints in the press about Opus Dei strange relationships like with the CIA and other powerful organizations. I don't know that they ever opted out of any Novus Ordo novelties, but nobody knows much about them because they don't want the masses in on their gig.

I haven't seen any real evidence that would make me believe that Escriva is a saint. They had a rather strong relationship with JPII. In any case they would probably not be too interested in you unless you volunteer to clean their toilets for life, or at the other end, are a person of immense power that will help them realize their plans.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2012, 04:50:37 PM »

Quote from: Lighthouse

The answer is to be found in your own signature: "A WICKED PEOPLE CRAVE SUBJUGATION TO AN EVIL TYRANT. "

I became somewhat interested in the Opus Dei charade quite a few years ago. It somehow gives off the glow of traditional gold. Truth is that they are so secretive it's hard to know for sure....

Really? I don't know much about Opus Dei. Not much at all. I learned about it from a co-worker, actually.

I've browsed the website a few times in the last few weeks, checking out the books by that guy. So far, I've enjoyed The Way. It's like reading Proverbs.

Am I missing something?

rowsofvoices9 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 08, 2012, 06:00:40 PM »

I think I finally understand why so many Trads view St. Escriv'a in such a negative light. It's all about the impact he had on the second Vatican Council and his teaching about the universal call to personal holiness through the ordinary and the responsibility each of us as members of the mystical body share in doing God's work in the world. The Council taught that leading others to salvation is no longer exclusively the domain of priests and religious, each of us as members of the royal priesthood are called upon to witness and work in the world and bring as many souls as possible to the narrow path that leads to eternal life.

After reading this short bio of his life, to me he appears to have been a great saint.

http://www.frcoulter.com/presentations/escrivatalk.html

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #4 on:** December 08, 2012, 06:19:29 PM »

Quote from: rowsofvoices9

I think I finally understand why so many Trads view St. Escriv'a in such a negative light. It's all about the impact he had on the second Vatican Council and his teaching about the universal call to personal holiness through the ordinary and the responsibility each of us as members of the mystical body share in doing God's work in the world. The Council taught that leading others to salvation is no longer exclusively the domain of priests and religious, each of us as members of the royal priesthood are called upon to witness and work in the world and bring as many souls as possible to the narrow path that leads to eternal life.

After reading this short bio of his life, to me he appears to have been a great saint.

http://www.frcoulter.com/presentations/escrivatalk.html

I didn't know Escriva had an impact in Vatican II. I think it was almost exclusively Paul VI working behind the scenes with some of his change agents. Was Escriva a change agent?

We lead others to salvation by introducing them to the teachings of the Catholic Church and the Sacraments. It has always been the domain of the layperson to do this task...

...that's the purpose of large Catholic families (something that is becoming pretty rare in novus ordo land)

The council taught? What? And if these teachings were so efficacious why did the Church see such a precipitous drop after VII? Now, if you want to say that the council instituted a replacement church, then I'm in full agreement. Please don't say the transmission was bad because at no time in the history of the world were mass communications more efficient and cost effective than the post-1950 world (it has since become on steroids and full of lies too but that's another issue.)

The following question isn't directed to Rows but to anyone who feels they can answer it.

Did Vatican II invent the concept of the laity as a "royal priesthood"?

But this question is directed toward Rows:

What exactly is saintly about Escriva? I'd like someone to help me understand.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #5 on:** December 08, 2012, 06:30:06 PM »

Quote from: rowsofvoices9

I think I finally understand why so many Trads view St. Escriv'a in such a negative light. It's all about the impact he had on the second Vatican Council and his teaching about the universal call to personal holiness through the ordinary and the responsibility each of us as members of the mystical body share in doing God's work in the world. The Council taught that leading others to salvation is no longer exclusively the domain of priests and religious, each of us as members of the royal priesthood are called upon to witness and work in the world and bring as many souls as possible to the narrow path that leads to eternal life.

After reading this short bio of his life, to me he appears to have been a great saint.

http://www.frcoulter.com/presentations/escrivatalk.html

Fr. Coulter's webpage has a cute article on Josemaria Escriva where it says he thought a person could "sanctify the world and sanctify his own life..." well, if he believed that then he was at odds with Our Lord on two counts.

1. Only God can sanctify the world. Remember, God sent the world a Redeemer so these guys running around talking about sanctifying the world are, in their own way, denigrating the Life Work of Our Savior.

2. Only the Holy Ghost can sanctify us. We are not the givers outers of sanctification.

The words of Our Lord openly way that if we were of this world then the world would celebrate us as its own but He called us out of this world to be His own. That's a great privilege to be a faithful Catholic. So, why does Escriva think that it's up to him to sanctify the world? Is he a megalomaniac? Perhaps he just became inebriated with his own theories?

Now, it's possible that I'm reading the insipid words of some novus ordo priest so I may be wrong about this Escriva guy.

rowsofvoices9 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 08, 2012, 07:34:11 PM »

@ Cap't

I didn't get the impression that St. Escriv'a believed that man could sanctify himself through his own efforts. Basically he thought that all work no matter how lowly is important and can be a means of becoming holy if done to the best of our ability and with proper intention of always striving to please and serve God. If we work in this way we are bound to grow in holiness. Nowhere in that biography did I see that St. Escrev'a ever denied the basic truth that it is the Holy Spirit and our cooperation with His grace that we are sanctified and become holier.

To me what made St. Escreva so holy was that his total self-sacrifice. He never thought of his own needs but only those of others and how to best serve God. It's as simple as that.

I think that you have to had grown up in the pre-V2 Church to fully understand and appreciate what I meant by all of us being members of the royal priesthood. I think the council fathers had good intentions in wanting to broaden the laities active participation in life of the Church and their role in evangelization of the world. It's just that the modernists hijacked and abused these intentions by introducing all kinds of novelties and new approaches in theology.

There was a time that priests and religious (nuns not so much) were looked upon as being almost God himself. The laity had a tendency to put them on a pedestal. Nothing they said or did could be questioned, they were above reproach. I think that mentality is partly responsible for the clerical abuse scandal. No one would believe that Father could or would do such a thing. If a child accused a priest of this crime, naturally the the priest would be believed. Also certain beliefs and practices once believed to be engraved in stone turned out not to be so.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #7 on:** December 08, 2012, 10:10:58 PM »

Rows,

How old are you? Please don't misinterpret what I am saying. I just want to know if you have pre-Vatican II experience.

Are you younger or older than 55?

Were you already in your 20's or 30's when Vatican II was convened?

rowsofvoices9 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 08, 2012, 11:00:07 PM »

Quote from: Capt McQuigg

Rows,

How old are you? Please don't misinterpret what I am saying. I just want to know if you have pre-Vatican II experience.

Are you younger or older than 55?

Were you already in your 20's or 30's when Vatican II was convened?

I was seven years old when the Second Vatican Council was convened. Therefore I have experience with the pre-V2 Church. You must understand that all the changes in the Mass etc., weren't officially implemented until either 1969 or 1970. By that time I was 14 or 15. I have a very vivid memory of what Church life was like prior to the Council when the Mass was exclusively celebrated in Tridentine Rite. Contrary to what most of you young folks believe, everything wasn't always so rosy in the Church.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #9 on:** December 08, 2012, 11:02:01 PM »

Quote from: rowsofvoices9

You must understand that all the changes in the Mass etc., weren't officially implemented until either 1969 or 1970. By that time I was 14 or 15. I have a very vivid memory of what Church life was like prior to the Council when the Mass was exclusively celebrated in Tridentine Rite. Contrary to what most of you young folks believe, everything wasn't always so rosy in the Church.

Most of your memories are from the 60s.

rowsofvoices9 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 08, 2012, 11:15:04 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: rowsofvoices9
You must understand that all the changes in the Mass etc., weren't officially implemented until either 1969 or 1970. By that time I was 14 or 15. I have a very vivid memory of what Church life was like prior to the Council when the Mass was exclusively celebrated in Tridentine Rite. Contrary to what most of you young folks believe, everything wasn't always so rosy in the Church.

Most of your memories are from the 60s.

Yes that is correct.

rowsofvoices9 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 08, 2012, 11:19:28 PM »

I would be nice if some other older folks such as Sigismund would share their memories of the Church prior to V2.

Lighthouse · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2012, 11:43:20 PM »

Here's the Homepage of the biggest anti-Opus Dei group:

ODAN

I can't vouch for any of the information. Just something to take a look at.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2012, 11:45:46 PM »

I would like to know too from someone old enough to remember what the level of theological knowledge was prior to Vatican II.

Was the level of knowledge of the average parishioner as impressive as your average SSPX attendee?

I know that a large chunk of novus ordites think of the Real Presence as merely symbolic but NONE of the SSPXers see it that way. As for the sede chapels, those guys are all walking Catholic encyclopedias.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2012, 11:48:26 PM »

Quote from: rowsofvoices9

I would be nice if some other older folks such as Sigismund would share their memories of the Church prior to V2.

Sigismund is only 58! He was approx. 14 when Paul VI instituted the "mass" that separated Catholics from the predecessors (some Catholics were separated eternally). Paul VI even said that his new mass would break the centuries long bond of praying the same prayers the great saints did in the past but ushering in the new era was worth the sacrifice.