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Author Topic: The Vernacular  (Read 1201 times)

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Offline ChristusRex1571

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The Vernacular
« on: March 23, 2020, 07:08:17 PM »
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    • Why is it that even among traditionalists when the Rosary is said in public it is usually in the vernacular? Every Catholic should know their Pater Noster and Ave Maria. I have also heard that the prayers after low Mass to some degree paved the way for the use of vernacular in the liturgy
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    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #1 on: March 23, 2020, 08:03:31 PM »
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    • I have never seen the faithful pray the Rosary in Latin. I've never seen the faithful say their prayers before Mass in Latin, period. 

    It seems like something that would happen in a seminary. Can those who went to one confirm?
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #2 on: March 23, 2020, 08:11:41 PM »
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    • When I first attended my SSPX mission, knowing very little going into it, I was very surprised to learn that the Rosary before Mass was said in English. And then of course the Leonine prayers afterwards were also in English.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #3 on: March 23, 2020, 08:18:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: ChristusRex1571 on March 23, 2020, 07:08:17 PM
    Why is it that even among traditionalists when the Rosary is said in public it is usually in the vernacular? Every Catholic should know their Pater Noster and Ave Maria. I have also heard that the prayers after low Mass to some degree paved the way for the use of vernacular in the liturgy
    .
    Because people pray in their mother tongue.  This is a good thing, as prayer is something that should be done with understanding and meaning, both of which are magnified when its in a language you speak, rather than in a language you don't speak.  The eastern liturgies have been in the vernacular for centuries.  And there were western liturgies, now defunct, which were also in the vernacular leading up to Trent.
    .
    Do you have a problem with the faithful following along in their missals in the vernacular, too?
    .
    What about the Apostles, or literally any missionary ever?  They all evangelized in the language of the people they were converting.  None of this has ever been a problem.  No need to make it into one.
    .
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    Offline ChristusRex1571

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #4 on: March 23, 2020, 08:37:14 PM »
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    • This ignores my point that historically Catholics learned basic prayers in Latin and did a lot of their praying in Latin. Latin is more efficacious. Just like having the Mass be in Latin lets us know this is not an everyday activity, if you pray in Latin it may help you concentrate more and know you are not talking to your friend but to God. I am obviously not against people following along in the Missal. But again, if you go to Mass ever Sunday you will likely understand much of the Common in Latin
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #5 on: March 23, 2020, 08:54:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on March 23, 2020, 08:18:37 PM
    Do you have a problem with the faithful following along in their missals in the vernacular, too?

    https://adoremus.org/2019/01/12/forbidden-translations-a-brief-history-of-how-the-mass-came-to-be-rendered-in-the-vernacular/

    So, if this is correct, until recently, vernacular translations of the Mass and hand missals were forbidden. So one could oppose them as a novelty.

    I myself have two missals at home. But I prefer not to use them at Mass, as I go to witness the sacrifice, not read from a book. I do not condemn those who use them at Mass, but it is not something I like to do.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #6 on: March 23, 2020, 09:27:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: ChristusRex1571 on March 23, 2020, 07:08:17 PM
    Why is it that even among traditionalists when the Rosary is said in public it is usually in the vernacular? Every Catholic should know their Pater Noster and Ave Maria. I have also heard that the prayers after low Mass to some degree paved the way for the use of vernacular in the liturgy
    You just showed up a CI and by your posting you have not attended many Trad masses, because in my 25 years of attending the traditional Latin Mass, I have never heard the rosary said in Latin. There are many more important things to live the faith than doing the rosary in Latin. To say the least, you seem to be straining a gnat, I hope you are not also swallowing camels.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #7 on: March 23, 2020, 09:32:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: ChristusRex1571 on March 23, 2020, 07:08:17 PM
    Why is it that even among traditionalists when the Rosary is said in public it is usually in the vernacular? 
    Traditionally there is no such creature as a traditionalist. There are only Catholics and non-Catholics (or "publics", as we used to call others when I was a child). In my memory the Rosary has been traditionally said in the vernacular. I have never seen it said in Latin and except once in a family setting and to me that seemed forced and unnatural.

    Quote from: ChristusRex1571 on March 23, 2020, 08:37:14 PM
    This ignores my point that historically Catholics learned basic prayers in Latin and did a lot of their praying in Latin. Latin is more efficacious. Just like having the Mass be in Latin lets us know this is not an everyday activity, if you pray in Latin it may help you concentrate more and know you are not talking to your friend but to God. I am obviously not against people following along in the Missal. But again, if you go to Mass ever Sunday you will likely understand much of the Common in Latin
    I wonder how old are you that you think that "historically Catholics learned basic prayers in Latin and did a lot of their praying in Latin." 

    Most, or many, Catholics learned their prayers at their Mother's knee, and not in Latin. There may be some who learned more formally, as in the schoolroom, but still they would have learned in the spontaneity of their mother tongue.

    You seem to be confusing private/ personal/ family prayer with liturgical prayer. As long as prayer is from the heart it is good.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #8 on: March 23, 2020, 11:09:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: ChristusRex1571 on March 23, 2020, 07:08:17 PM
    Why is it that even among traditionalists when the Rosary is said in public it is usually in the vernacular? Every Catholic should know their Pater Noster and Ave Maria. I have also heard that the prayers after low Mass to some degree paved the way for the use of vernacular in the liturgy
    What really paved the way for the use of the vernacular in the liturgy was the influence of the eastern rite of the Catholic Church during the Second Vatican Council.  
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    Offline poche

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #9 on: March 23, 2020, 11:10:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on March 23, 2020, 08:11:41 PM
    When I first attended my SSPX mission, knowing very little going into it, I was very surprised to learn that the Rosary before Mass was said in English. And then of course the Leonine prayers afterwards were also in English.
    When I go to the TLM many times the Leonine prayers are said in Latin. 
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #10 on: March 24, 2020, 04:19:49 AM »
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    • Yes, I’ve prayed the Rosary in Latin many times.  That’s because I went to the chapel of an SSPX priory and joined them for their private prayers.  When in public, it was always in English.  
    If you want to learn to pray in Latin, it’s not hard.  There are plenty of on-line and pre-recorded lessons.  I suggest simply praying along with one of these with printed transliteration to help you.  In a few weeks you should learn the main prayers without really studying.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #11 on: March 24, 2020, 05:14:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphina on March 24, 2020, 04:19:49 AM
    Yes, I’ve prayed the Rosary in Latin many times.  That’s because I went to the chapel of an SSPX priory and joined them for their private prayers.  When in public, it was always in English.  
    If you want to learn to pray in Latin, it’s not hard.  There are plenty of on-line and pre-recorded lessons.  I suggest simply praying along with one of these with printed transliteration to help you.  In a few weeks you should learn the main prayers without really studying.
    I like to pray in Latin too. 
    :incense: :incense: :incense:
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #12 on: March 24, 2020, 05:21:25 AM »
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    • Praying the rosary before Mass is a relatively new custom that started after the revolution of V2 due to the fear that arose among the faithful against the horrors of the new religion. Before V2, praying the rosary before Mass was not the custom, not as far as I know - I have asked some old timers who also say the same thing. Any pre-V2ers who can corroborate please jump in here if I am wrong, but my guess is you do not remember praying the rosary before Mass pre-V2.

    In the 70s we prayed the rosary in Latin all the time along with the priest and seminarians when we went to the SSPX priory for daily Mass, but there is no special significance associated with praying the rosary in Latin.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #13 on: March 24, 2020, 06:41:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: JezusDeKoning on March 23, 2020, 08:03:31 PM
    I have never seen the faithful pray the Rosary in Latin. I've never seen the faithful say their prayers before Mass in Latin, period.

    It seems like something that would happen in a seminary. Can those who went to one confirm?

    Yes, we said the Rosary in Latin at St. Thomas Aquinas seminary.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Vernacular
    « Reply #14 on: March 24, 2020, 06:48:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: ChristusRex1571 on March 23, 2020, 07:08:17 PM
    Why is it that even among traditionalists when the Rosary is said in public it is usually in the vernacular? Every Catholic should know their Pater Noster and Ave Maria. I have also heard that the prayers after low Mass to some degree paved the way for the use of vernacular in the liturgy

    I've always believed that the mental prayer (meditation) part of the Rosary is most important, and Our Lady devised the devotion to help average people learn how to engage in mental prayer.  Prots and Modernists alike criticize the Rosary for being repetitive, but the repetition actually helps anchor part of the brain, so that rest of the mind can rise to meditation.  Psychologists have come to the realization that there's an "automatic" part of the brain that goes into auto-pilot, as it were, while doing familiar tasks, so that the conscious mind can focus on other things.  When you drive a familiar route over and over again, you don't even think about it, as your brain already knows how to do this.  Since the brain does it for you, the rest of your mind is free to think about other things.

    So I don't think that the language is crucial.  What's more important is that the prayers are so familiar that the mind need not focus on the words, and many/most of the faithful would struggle since much of their brain power might be focused on merely recalling the proper words.  If one gets into a daily habit of reciting the Rosary in Latin, then this can be accomplished over time, but just saying it once a week before Sunday Mass would not be conducive to that end.
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