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Author Topic: The so-called "Early Church"  (Read 1770 times)

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Offline Stephen Francis

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The so-called "Early Church"
« on: September 07, 2013, 06:31:46 AM »
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  • +JMJ+

    I've heard Protestants talk about wanting to regain the "faith of the early church", as if there was something magically purer and more innocent about the faith of those who wrote Scripture and those who were under their teachings.

    What many, many people fail to see is that the better part of 100 years had passed since Christ before the last Apostle died. Thus, the "early church", so-called, had been in existence for all of that time.

    70 years. Twice as long a time as Our Lord was walking the earth.

    Do Protestants really think that 70 years was not enough time for liturgy and tradition to develop, especially since the people doing the teaching during that entire span were Apostles and their immediate successors?

    Share your experiences with Protestants who have told you about their desire to be like "the early church" in this thread; also feel free to quote the 1st- and 2nd-century Fathers who wrote about the Apostles and the people who learned from them.

    Can you just imagine all the people of the Church sitting around in 65 A.D. with their Bibles and their guitars, having informal "worship services" and "Bible studies"?

    I've actually had people suggest that their Protestant "bible studies" or "small groups" were JUST LIKE the "early church" because there were no buildings and there was NO HIERARCHY of authority, just people who chose a "leader", more like a "facilitator" than an actual shepherd of souls.

    This, of course, was because the people speaking were stubborn self-determinists who believe they have a special unction from the "spirit" to read and interpret Scripture in such a way that even if they are wrong, their "sincerity" and "faith" are meritorious before God.

    Kyrie eleison.

    St. Anthony of Padua, hammer of heretics, terror of Hell, pray for us.

    Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!

    Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #1 on: September 07, 2013, 06:56:06 AM »
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  • What I've noticed is that there is no singular event that all, most or even many protestants agree as definitive of when the 'Early Church' became the big bad Catholic Church (and thus, no longer worthy of our allegiance).

    It's all very vague and general.  You can't get a protestant to pinpoint where the Church went wrong.  Traditional Catholics don't have that problem.  There might be a disagreement on whether it was 1954 or 1962 or 1965 but the event that changed the world in a dramatically awful way was the Conciliar Reform.  

    Protestants tend to more or less repeat what has always been said by those who have defected from the True Church, but it is nothing more than a conceptualization.  They cannot give you a serious point in time or event that spurred (and justified) the protestant revolution.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline OHCA

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #2 on: September 07, 2013, 07:40:53 AM »
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  • This is a great thread. I have only started hearing this kind of talk from protestants in recent years. The ones I have heard it from are the rural uneducated "non-denominationals"--the ones who love their private interpretation bible study groups. These simple heretics are trying to re-write history to say they date back to the time of Christ. I am interested in hearing how others here handle this.

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #3 on: September 07, 2013, 09:05:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stephen Francis
    I've heard Protestants talk about wanting to regain the "faith of the early church", as if there was something magically purer and more innocent about the faith of those who wrote Scripture and those who were under their teachings.


    I've heard this too for the longest time from Protestants. When I raise the point that Mithrandylan made, they answer that the early Church after which they would model themselves is found in the Acts of the Apostles. However, I tell them that it was the successors of the Apostles who defined that Acts was to be enumerated in the Canon of Sacred Scripture centuries after the Apostles went to their heavenly glory. In fact, the Apostles and their disciples never had "Bibles" in the sense the Protestants do because the New Testament had not been completed.

    It was the successors of St. Peter in the Roman Pontiff who faithfully guarded the deposit of faith and the Sacred Scriptures, because to St. Peter alone was infallibility promised for his successors. The Church came before the Bible, not the other way around.

    The Protestants have mutilated the Sacred Canons and have derogated the doctrines of Christ and of the Apostles. If they had been in the "early Church" they would have come up with thousands of "Gospels" of their own making and would have preached contradictory things only to make Christ into a thing of mockery: as they have done for so long and still do so to this day.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline bowler

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #4 on: September 07, 2013, 09:47:12 AM »
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  • For there to be "something", it has to be defined.

    What are Protestants?

    Each person is his own church of one, taking with him whatever he alone believes, that is what a Protestant is today.

    There really are no group of people who agree on anything that can rightly call themselves Protestants. Each Protestant is his own church of one. Therefore, there is nothing that can be discussed about religion with them,  each person has to be handled individually.


    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #5 on: September 07, 2013, 10:24:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    For there to be "something", it has to be defined.

    What are Protestants?

    Each person is his own church of one, taking with him whatever he alone believes, that is what a Protestant is today.

    There really are no group of people who agree on anything that can rightly call themselves Protestants. Each Protestant is his own church of one. Therefore, there is nothing that can be discussed about religion with them,  each person has to be handled individually.


    This is true. "Protestant" has become too elastic a term, especially when used by secularists.

    For example, what I posted above is something I could not discuss with liberals who deny the divine inspiration of Sacred Scriptures or the necessity of a set Canon of books in the Holy Bible.

    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Frances

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 12:04:58 PM »
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  •  :dancing-banana:
    Although baptised Catholic, I was Protestant for 25 years before "discovering" Tradition.  Name
    the "denomination," I tried it.  ALL of them claimed to "worship" like the "early christians" in the book of Acts.  Obviously, they couldn't all be right.  It wasn't until I "chanced upon" the writings of the actual "early Church Fathers" that I "discovered" the True Church founded by Jesus Christ.  This was in 2005.  Since then, attempts to enlighten my mostly ex-friends, (Becoming a Traditional Catholic is not popular in Protestant circles!), has resulted in defensive arguments, refusal to listen, or wholesale indifference. Most Protestants believe what they WANT to believe, that's why most are truly heretics.  Conversion is truly a grace.
     :heretic:
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  

    Offline Stephen Francis

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #7 on: September 07, 2013, 12:30:02 PM »
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  • As far as a time frame is concerned, our dear friend Jean Cauvin ("John Calvin") was noted as saying that he was positive that the first 400 or 500 years (I don't recall correctly which) of the early Church were theologically and liturgically and doctrinally flawless.

    Think about how many of the Church Fathers lived and died within those first 400-500 years. Think about all of the clear and unambiguous and precise statements of doctrine that were made in that time frame.  Many of the most unambiguous and plain statements of doctrine of the Catholic faith were made in those years and were matters of unanimous agreement for another thousand years afterwards.

    Interestingly, some good friends of mine have been reading a book about the differences between Hebrew thought about religion and its effects on life and the Greek model of thought about religion. The Hebrew model, as it was in the time of the Patriarchs, a definite, hierarchical, systematic approach to worship, is unknown in the world today outside the Church, where the worship of the Temple has been perfected and carried forward in the true Faith.

    It is the Greek model of thought about religion, a system of rhetoric and argument that is designed to convince rather than command, is the modus operandi of all heretical sects claiming to be Christian.

    That's why when someone formulates their own theological theories, they "join" a so-called "local church" because the rhetoric there agrees with what they already hold to be so. At whatever time the "teaching" (read = opinion) diverges from what an individual private person has determined, they either sit in the meeting and silently dissent or they leave and charge the group leaders with "false teaching". Most will then go join another group, but some go as far as to establish entirely new groups on the grounds that they want to get to "the truth of the Bible".

    No one can be told to obey because submission and obedience are not Greek/intellectual characteristics; they're purely the product of top-down revelation as opposed to linear argumentation.
    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar


    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #8 on: September 07, 2013, 12:37:46 PM »
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  • Not to derail the thread, but...

    Quote from: Stephen Francis, elsewhere
    The idea that all graces in life come from God through Jesus by way of Mary has been hard for me to understand.


    In another thread, I had directed you to this:

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Summary-of-True-Devotion-to-the-Blessed-Virgin-Mary

    On the occasion of the Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, here is another source that may help you:

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/The-Blessed-Virgin-Mary-The-Heavenly-Aqueduct
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Stephen Francis

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #9 on: September 10, 2013, 04:22:56 PM »
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  • Hobble, I was a bit late in up-thumbing your links. Thanks much.

    Interestingly, it's not just the liberals who are disavowing any allegiance to the Canon of Scripture. I've even encountered hyper-Calvinist fundamentalists who are calling into question the orthodox Canon precisely because it was formulated and promulgated by the Church and these people clearly perceive a major difference between the Church of those centuries and their so-called faith today.

    Unbelievable the lengths to which men will go in order to resist and defy the Church of Jesus Christ.

    Kyrie eleison.

    Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!

    Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #10 on: September 10, 2013, 04:32:05 PM »
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  • The protestant visceral dislike of Our Lady will always baffle me.  It's the number one reason I think that protestantism is from Hell.  

    Everything about protestantism is problematic but the dislike, sometimes even hatred and sometimes even mockery of Our Lady is the biggest clue out there that there is something very "off" about protestantism.

    Our Lady is truly the destroyer of heresies.


    Offline OHCA

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #11 on: September 10, 2013, 04:46:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    The protestant visceral dislike of Our Lady will always baffle me.  It's the number one reason I think that protestantism is from Hell.  

    Everything about protestantism is problematic but the dislike, sometimes even hatred and sometimes even mockery of Our Lady is the biggest clue out there that there is something very "off" about protestantism.

    Our Lady is truly the destroyer of heresies.


    Protestants' strong hatred of Catholicism prompts them to attack Our Lady because we hold her so dear.  I don't really think their incoherent heretical mistreatment of our lady is based on much more than that.

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #12 on: September 10, 2013, 09:48:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    The protestant visceral dislike of Our Lady will always baffle me.  It's the number one reason I think that protestantism is from Hell.  

    Everything about protestantism is problematic but the dislike, sometimes even hatred and sometimes even mockery of Our Lady is the biggest clue out there that there is something very "off" about protestantism.

    Our Lady is truly the destroyer of heresies.


    It shows that they do not really believe that Our Lord is the sole-begotten Son of the Eternal Father, co-equal and co-eternal with Him, Who assumed our human nature from the immaculate flesh of the Blessed Virgin in order to redeem mankind.

    This is why most Protestants nowadays speak of Our Lord as if He were some "guru" or just another prophet.

    It is inconceivable to have Jesus without Mary, for both the redemptive Incarnation and the predestination of Our Lady to the Divine Maternity were included in one and the same divine decree from all eternity.

    This is why last Sunday's Feast Day of Our Lady's Nativity is so important and why the Book of Proverbs was read instead of a lesson from the Epistles.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 09:55:33 PM »
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  • How can the heretics of ages past and of our day understand the Athanasian Creed, for example, without understanding the indispensable role Our Lady played in the Incarnation of Our Lord. If you begin denying or outright despising Our Lady, sacred Symbols of the faith like the Athanasian Creed become ultimately irrelevant or meaningless.

    Here is a treat that show how rich our Catholic heritage is.

    From The Mirror of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Speculum Beatae Mariae Virginis) and The Psalter of Our Lady (Psalterium Beatae Mariae Virginis) (trans. Sr. Mary Emmanual, O.S.B.; St. Louis, MO: B. Herder Book Co., 1932), here is an English translation of the Marian adaptation of the Athanasian Creed made by the great Seraphic Doctor, St. Bonaventure:





    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Zeitun

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    The so-called "Early Church"
    « Reply #14 on: September 10, 2013, 10:30:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Hobbledehoy
    This is why most Protestants nowadays speak of Our Lord as if He were some "guru" or just another prophet.


    This is an understatement.  I have a new age Protestant relative who claims to "have a direct connection to God" and treats prayer like yanking on a slot machine arm.