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Author Topic: The Pope and the Precipice  (Read 3876 times)

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Offline Fortitudo

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The Pope and the Precipice
« on: November 05, 2014, 11:25:02 AM »
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  • From Oct. 25th New York Times:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/opinion/sunday/ross-douthat-the-pope-and-the-precipice.html?_r=0


    The Pope and the Precipice
    by Ross Douthat

    Quote


    To grasp why events this month in Rome — publicly feuding cardinals, docuмents floated and then disavowed — were so remarkable in the context of modern Catholic history, it helps to understand certain practical aspects of the doctrine of papal infallibility.

    On paper, that doctrine seems to grant extraordinary power to the pope — since he cannot err, the First Vatican Council declared in 1870, when he “defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.”

    In practice, though, it places profound effective limits on his power.

    Those limits are set, in part, by normal human modesty: “I am only infallible if I speak infallibly, but I shall never do that,” John XXIII is reported to have said. But they’re also set by the binding power of existing teaching, which a pope cannot reverse or contradict without proving his own office, well, fallible — effectively dynamiting the very claim to authority on which his decisions rest.

    Not surprisingly, then, popes are usually quite careful. On the two modern occasions when a pontiff defined a doctrine of the faith, it was on a subject — the holiness of the Virgin Mary — that few devout Catholics consider controversial. In the last era of major church reform, the Second Vatican Council, the popes were not the intellectual protagonists, and the council’s debates — while vigorous — were steered toward a (pope-approved) consensus: The docuмents that seemed most like developments in doctrine, on religious liberty and Judaism, passed with less than a hundred dissenting votes out of more than 2,300 cast.

    But something very different is happening under Pope Francis. In his public words and gestures, through the men he’s elevated and the debates he’s encouraged, this pope has repeatedly signaled a desire to rethink issues where Catholic teaching is in clear tension with Western social life — sex and marriage, divorce and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.

    And in the synod on the family, which concluded a week ago in Rome, the prelates in charge of the proceedings — men handpicked by the pontiff — formally proposed such a rethinking, issuing a docuмent that suggested both a general shift in the church’s attitude toward nonmarital relationships and a specific change, admitting the divorced-and-remarried to communion, that conflicts sharply with the church’s historic teaching on marriage’s indissolubility.

    At which point there was a kind of chaos. Reports from inside the synod have a medieval feel — churchmen berating each other, accusations of manipulation flying, rebellions bubbling up. Outside Catholicism’s doors, the fault lines were laid bare: geographical (Germans versus Africans; Poles versus Italians), generational (a 1970s generation that seeks cultural accommodation and a younger, John Paul II-era that seeks to be countercultural) and theological above all.

    In the end, the docuмent’s controversial passages were substantially walked back. But even then, instead of a Vatican II-style consensus, the synod divided, with large numbers voting against even watered-down language around divorce and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity. Some of those votes may have been cast by disappointed progressives. But many others were votes cast, in effect, against the pope.

    In the week since, many Catholics have downplayed the starkness of what happened or minimized the papal role. Conservatives have implied that the synod organizers somehow went rogue, that Pope Francis’s own views were not really on the table, that orthodox believers should not be worried. More liberal Catholics have argued that there was no real chaos — this was just the kind of freewheeling, Jesuit-style debate Francis was hoping for — and that the pope certainly suffered no meaningful defeat.

    Neither argument is persuasive. Yes, Francis has taken no formal position on the issues currently in play. But all his moves point in a pro-change direction — and it simply defies belief that men appointed by the pope would have proposed departures on controversial issues without a sense that Francis would approve.

    If this is so, the synod has to be interpreted as a rebuke of the implied papal position. The pope wishes to take these steps, the synod managers suggested. Given what the church has always taught, many of the synod’s participants replied, he and we cannot.

    Over all, that conservative reply has the better of the argument. Not necessarily on every issue: The church’s attitude toward gαy Catholics, for instance, has often been far more punitive and hostile than the pastoral approach to heterosɛҳuąƖs living in what the church considers sinful situations, and there are clearly ways that the church can be more understanding of the cross carried by gαy Christians.

    But going beyond such a welcome to a kind of celebration of the virtues of nonmarital relationships generally, as the synod docuмent seemed to do, might open a divide between formal teaching and real-world practice that’s too wide to be sustained. And on communion for the remarried, the stakes are not debatable at all. The Catholic Church was willing to lose the kingdom of England, and by extension the entire English-speaking world, over the principle that when a first marriage is valid a second is adulterous, a position rooted in the specific words of Jesus of Nazareth. To change on that issue, no matter how it was couched, would not be development; it would be contradiction and reversal.

    SUCH a reversal would put the church on the brink of a precipice. Of course it would be welcomed by some progressive Catholics and hailed by the secular press. But it would leave many of the church’s bishops and theologians in an untenable position, and it would sow confusion among the church’s orthodox adherents — encouraging doubt and defections, apocalypticism and paranoia (remember there is another pope still living!) and eventually even a real schism.

    Those adherents are, yes, a minority — sometimes a small minority — among self-identified Catholics in the West. But they are the people who have done the most to keep the church vital in an age of institutional decline: who have given their energy and time and money in an era when the church is stained by scandal, who have struggled to raise families and live up to demanding teachings, who have joined the priesthood and religious life in an age when those vocations are not honored as they once were. They have kept the faith amid moral betrayals by their leaders; they do not deserve a theological betrayal.

    Which is why this pope has incentives to step back from the brink — as his closing remarks to the synod, which aimed for a middle way between the church’s factions, were perhaps designed to do.

    Francis is charismatic, popular, widely beloved. He has, until this point, faced strong criticism only from the church’s traditionalist fringe, and managed to unite most Catholics in admiration for his ministry. There are ways that he can shape the church without calling doctrine into question, and avenues he can explore (annulment reform, in particular) that would bring more people back to the sacraments without a crisis. He can be, as he clearly wishes to be, a progressive pope, a pope of social justice — and he does not have to break the church to do it.

    But if he seems to be choosing the more dangerous path — if he moves to reassign potential critics in the hierarchy, if he seems to be stacking the next synod’s ranks with supporters of a sweeping change — then conservative Catholics will need a cleareyed understanding of the situation.

    They can certainly persist in the belief that God protects the church from self-contradiction. But they might want to consider the possibility that they have a role to play, and that this pope may be preserved from error only if the church itself resists him.



    Interesting...


    Offline Elizabeth

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    The Pope and the Precipice
    « Reply #1 on: November 05, 2014, 12:08:27 PM »
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  • Wow, from NYT, yet.  Thanks for posting this.


    Offline glaston

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    The Pope and the Precipice
    « Reply #2 on: November 05, 2014, 05:11:42 PM »
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  • You might find bits on here interesting >>>

    http://www.all-about-the-virgin-mary.com/Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ-in-the-church.html?gclid=COv8qNXB5MECFazItAodDVYACA

    Offline Cantarella

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    The Pope and the Precipice
    « Reply #3 on: November 05, 2014, 05:26:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: glaston
    You might find bits on here interesting >>>

    http://www.all-about-the-virgin-mary.com/Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ-in-the-church.html?gclid=COv8qNXB5MECFazItAodDVYACA


    Quote

    The “Alta Vendita” docuмents chillingly summarizes a plan to infiltrate and destroy the Catholic Church from within, a plan which may even require a century:


    Our ultimate end is that of...the final destruction of Catholicism, and even of the Christian idea … The Pope, whoever he is, will never come to the secret societies; it is up to the secret societies to take the first step toward the Church, with the aim of conquering both of them. The task that we are going to undertake is not the work of a day, or of a month, or of a year; it may last several years, perhaps a century; but in our ranks the soldier dies and struggle goes on … What we must ask for, what we should look for and wait for, as the Jєωs wait for the Messiah, is a Pope according to our needs … You will contrive for yourselves, at little cost, a reputation as good Catholics and pure patriots. This reputation will put access to our doctrines into the midst of the young clergy, as well as deeply into the monasteries. In a few years, by the force of things, this young clergy will have overrun all the functions; they will form the sovereign’s council, they will be called to choose a Pontiff who should reign …


    A pope according to their own freemasonic needs is precisely what he is.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    The Pope and the Precipice
    « Reply #4 on: November 05, 2014, 05:53:28 PM »
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  • Yes, but according to many here they still, after all, think of him as their pope.

     :scratchchin:

    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/


    Offline Cantarella

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    The Pope and the Precipice
    « Reply #5 on: November 05, 2014, 05:59:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Yes, but according to many here they still, after all, think of him as their pope.

     :scratchchin:



    Because that decision does not depend on the orthodoxy / heterodoxy of the Pope but the facts on how the Holy Roman Catholic Church is legally and realistically constituted more than 2000 years ago.

    Has this become Myrna's default response to any given thread? The obsessive and accusatory "my pope" vs "your pope" sounds childish beyond words, especially when the thread is about a different topic.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline songbird

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    The Pope and the Precipice
    « Reply #6 on: November 05, 2014, 06:10:56 PM »
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  • Read chapter 12 of Daniel, and explain the end of the Sacrifice of the Mass!  If there is a pope,then how do you explain no Mass, anywhere in the World?  How does it come to this point?  IMO we are very close to this time.  If no Mass, no Precious Blood!  What do you think will be the result?

    Offline Cantarella

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    The Pope and the Precipice
    « Reply #7 on: November 05, 2014, 06:16:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: songbird
    Read chapter 12 of Daniel, and explain the end of the Sacrifice of the Mass!  If there is a pope,then how do you explain no Mass, anywhere in the World?  How does it come to this point?  IMO we are very close to this time.  If no Mass, no Precious Blood!  What do you think will be the result?


    Just out of curiosity, Songbird: are you saying that a SSPX / Resistance Mass for example....(or given that you seem to be a sedevacantist), a CMRI Mass is not valid because there is no real Consecration?

    Do you think that we are already in the times when there is no Precious Blood to be found anywhere because there are simply no valid Masses anywhere?
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    The Pope and the Precipice
    « Reply #8 on: November 05, 2014, 07:55:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Yes, but according to many here they still, after all, think of him as their pope.

     :scratchchin:



    And Myrna the Church Doctor is competent to decide who's Catholic and who isn't.  THAT sums up the problem with sedevacantism as eloquently as any other argument, where any granny can sit in her armchair and start deposing popes.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #9 on: November 05, 2014, 08:06:19 PM »
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  • And what's most ironic is that IF in fact Jorge Bergolio can be found guilty of heresy, it would be on one point and one point only, namely the denial of EENS.  And on those grounds the vast majority of sedevacantists themselves are guilty of the exact same heresy.  In fact, Bergoglio does nothing more than to embrace and extend to its logical conclusions what most of the EENS-denying sedevacantists refer to as an acceptable "minority opinion".  Consequently, if I were to go sedevacantist, then I would have to put you, Myrna, and 99% of your SV cohorts into the exact same category, manifest heretics on the grounds of denying EENS.

    Offline Disputaciones

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    The Pope and the Precipice
    « Reply #10 on: November 05, 2014, 09:31:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    THAT sums up the problem with sedevacantism as eloquently as any other argument, where any granny can sit in her armchair and start deposing popes.


    I wonder if you would ever dare to have a recorded debate with any sedevacantist such as John Lane or the ones from Novus Ordo Watch or any other known one.

    It's easy to hurl your little ramblings behind your computer, knowing you can just dismiss and ignore what you like with no consequence.


    Offline Disputaciones

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    The Pope and the Precipice
    « Reply #11 on: November 05, 2014, 11:24:39 PM »
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  • In the voting thread Ladislaus said this:

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Did any of you imbeciles bother to read the long article posted by someone expounding Catholic moral principles?


    Well, do you, imbecile, not know already that sedevacantists don't "depose Popes"?

    Offline Disputaciones

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    « Reply #12 on: November 05, 2014, 11:35:03 PM »
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  • This two-faced hypocrite Ladislaus accuses sedevacantists of "bitter zeal" and "dark hatred" and other similar nonsense, and here he is calling people in here imbeciles.

    Talk about speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

    Offline claudel

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    The Pope and the Precipice
    « Reply #13 on: November 06, 2014, 07:01:50 AM »
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  • This thread began with the quotation in full of a cleverly subversive piece from the adept temporizer Ross Douthat in the world's leading ʝʊdɛօ-managed news source. Before the first page of comments concluded, the first predictably childish, utterly boilerplate, and totally irrelevant SV sneer presented itself. Then, on page 2, EENS/BOD—which is CI's answer to the Ebola virus—infected the commenting, rendering its recovery most unlikely. Last but by no means least, we see Disputaciones brazenly suggesting that, all evidence to the contrary, he is not an imbecile.

    It's back to Minesweeper for me.

    Offline Elizabeth

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    « Reply #14 on: November 06, 2014, 07:46:37 AM »
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  • I had to look up the definition of temporizer, sadly.  But subversive was what I thought, not knowing the journalist--but knowing they wish to remain employed by the NYT.