Author Topic: Who are the schismatics? (Read 3723 times)

Meg · « **Reply #30 on:** October 26, 2013, 04:35:21 PM »

Quote from: Hyperdox Nick

Quote from: Matto
I do not agree with the Orthodox allowing divorce and remarriage and I believe that the Church teaches that marriage lasts always until the death of one of the spouses. But I have to admit that at least the Orthodox are honest about it. The Novus Ordo sect pretends to believe marriage is until death, yet it gives out annulments to nearly everyone who wants to get divorced and remarried.

It's not that it's "allowed" in Orthodoxy, like a free pass or something to do whatever the heck you please... it's just that the Orthodox don't want those who've divorced and remarried to be permanently separated from Holy Communion, and the resulting consequences for raising families in Faith.

I would think that it would be a deterrent to seeking a divorce if it was assumed that a divorce would lead to not being able to receive Our Lord in Holy Eucharist anymore. Yes, there are some marriages where there is such thing as abuse going on, but for the most part, a couple should stay together even if it's very difficult to do. Our religion wasn't meant to be easy. Our Lord said to take up our cross and follow Him.

Hyperdox Nick · « **Reply #31 on:** October 26, 2013, 06:32:44 PM »

Quote from: Meg

Quote from: Hyperdox Nick
Quote from: Matto
I do not agree with the Orthodox allowing divorce and remarriage and I believe that the Church teaches that marriage lasts always until the death of one of the spouses. But I have to admit that at least the Orthodox are honest about it. The Novus Ordo sect pretends to believe marriage is until death, yet it gives out annulments to nearly everyone who wants to get divorced and remarried.

It's not that it's "allowed" in Orthodoxy, like a free pass or something to do whatever the heck you please... it's just that the Orthodox don't want those who've divorced and remarried to be permanently separated from Holy Communion, and the resulting consequences for raising families in Faith.

I would think that it would be a deterrent to seeking a divorce if it was assumed that a divorce would lead to not being able to receive Our Lord in Holy Eucharist anymore. Yes, there are some marriages where there is such thing as abuse going on, but for the most part, a couple should stay together even if it's very difficult to do. Our religion wasn't meant to be easy. Our Lord said to take up our cross and follow Him.

We see the Eucharist as necessary for the healing of body and soul, and should not be denied to people unless they have excommunicated themselves from the Faith. It should not be used as something that should force a marriage to stay together. And Faith is never easy.

Meg · « **Reply #32 on:** October 26, 2013, 06:48:00 PM »

I didn't intend to say that denying Holy Eucharist to a divorced person is intended, by the Catholic Church, to force a couple to stay married. Rather I said it can be a deterrent.

I think that the EO do have an easier religion to follow, which isn't my cup of tea. I can see, though, how it would be appealing to a lot of people. You mentioned contraception. Since the EO are allowed artificial contraception, as long as they consult with the priest first, this is also an easier practice to follow than our Church (even if a lot of NO Catholics do use artificial contraception). I think that just because a majority of people want to do or allow something (like artificial contraception or divorce), this doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #33 on:** October 26, 2013, 06:52:01 PM »

Quote from: Hyperdox Nick

Quote from: Meg
Quote from: Hyperdox Nick
Quote from: Matto
I do not agree with the Orthodox allowing divorce and remarriage and I believe that the Church teaches that marriage lasts always until the death of one of the spouses. But I have to admit that at least the Orthodox are honest about it. The Novus Ordo sect pretends to believe marriage is until death, yet it gives out annulments to nearly everyone who wants to get divorced and remarried.

It's not that it's "allowed" in Orthodoxy, like a free pass or something to do whatever the heck you please... it's just that the Orthodox don't want those who've divorced and remarried to be permanently separated from Holy Communion, and the resulting consequences for raising families in Faith.

I would think that it would be a deterrent to seeking a divorce if it was assumed that a divorce would lead to not being able to receive Our Lord in Holy Eucharist anymore. Yes, there are some marriages where there is such thing as abuse going on, but for the most part, a couple should stay together even if it's very difficult to do. Our religion wasn't meant to be easy. Our Lord said to take up our cross and follow Him.

We see the Eucharist as necessary for the healing of body and soul, and should not be denied to people unless they have excommunicated themselves from the Faith. It should not be used as something that should force a marriage to stay together. And Faith is never easy.

Do you see the Eucharist as the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Our Lord? If so, then

Quote from: 1 Corinthians Chapter 11

Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

Hyperdox Nick · « **Reply #34 on:** October 26, 2013, 08:20:08 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Quote from: Hyperdox Nick
Quote from: Meg
Quote from: Hyperdox Nick
Quote from: Matto
I do not agree with the Orthodox allowing divorce and remarriage and I believe that the Church teaches that marriage lasts always until the death of one of the spouses. But I have to admit that at least the Orthodox are honest about it. The Novus Ordo sect pretends to believe marriage is until death, yet it gives out annulments to nearly everyone who wants to get divorced and remarried.

It's not that it's "allowed" in Orthodoxy, like a free pass or something to do whatever the heck you please... it's just that the Orthodox don't want those who've divorced and remarried to be permanently separated from Holy Communion, and the resulting consequences for raising families in Faith.

I would think that it would be a deterrent to seeking a divorce if it was assumed that a divorce would lead to not being able to receive Our Lord in Holy Eucharist anymore. Yes, there are some marriages where there is such thing as abuse going on, but for the most part, a couple should stay together even if it's very difficult to do. Our religion wasn't meant to be easy. Our Lord said to take up our cross and follow Him.

We see the Eucharist as necessary for the healing of body and soul, and should not be denied to people unless they have excommunicated themselves from the Faith. It should not be used as something that should force a marriage to stay together. And Faith is never easy.

Do you see the Eucharist as the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Our Lord? If so, then

Quote from: 1 Corinthians Chapter 11

Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

Yes...

Graham · « **Reply #35 on:** October 26, 2013, 09:49:03 PM »

I don't agree with hyperdox fellow, I agree with the Church, but he's made me think of a hypothetical situation. What should someone do if he divorces, remarries, starts a family with his second wife, and then converts? That is, he isn't Catholic to begin with, and then after starting a family with his second wife, finally becomes Catholic. Would he have to put his second wife away, while attempting to raise his children properly? That would be sad for the children.

And let's say his second wife doesn't agree, and so divorces him, and most likely gets the children, who would then not be raised Catholic. In these sorts of circuмstances is it a man's primary duty to rectify his own standing in the Church, and let the other chips fall where they may?

PereJoseph · « **Reply #36 on:** October 27, 2013, 12:30:47 AM »

Quote from: Graham

I don't agree with hyperdox fellow, I agree with the Church, but he's made me think of a hypothetical situation. What should someone do if he divorces, remarries, starts a family with his second wife, and then converts? That is, he isn't Catholic to begin with, and then after starting a family with his second wife, finally becomes Catholic. Would he have to put his second wife away, while attempting to raise his children properly? That would be sad for the children.

Yes, it would certainly be sad, but it seems that the objective fact of him not being married to this woman is insurmountable. The regular rules for fornication, scandal, and adultery would therefore apply. If one is scandalised by the simple fulfillment of the natural or divine laws, however, there does not seem to be any remedy for that short of the one who took scandal changing his heart and mind and agreeing with the action from which scandal was taken.

Quote

And let's say his second wife doesn't agree, and so divorces him, and most likely gets the children, who would then not be raised Catholic. In these sorts of circuмstances is it a man's primary duty to rectify his own standing in the Church, and let the other chips fall where they may?

I would say so, yes. This seems to be one of the hard sayings of the Faith. There seems to be no way around it (not that I am seeking or encourage others to seek such a way; I'm just saying how it is). Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I understand how the teaching of the Church should be applied in this scenario.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #37 on:** October 27, 2013, 08:58:11 AM »

Quote from: Hyperdox Nick

Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: Hyperdox Nick
Quote from: Meg
Quote from: Hyperdox Nick
Quote from: Matto
I do not agree with the Orthodox allowing divorce and remarriage and I believe that the Church teaches that marriage lasts always until the death of one of the spouses. But I have to admit that at least the Orthodox are honest about it. The Novus Ordo sect pretends to believe marriage is until death, yet it gives out annulments to nearly everyone who wants to get divorced and remarried.

It's not that it's "allowed" in Orthodoxy, like a free pass or something to do whatever the heck you please... it's just that the Orthodox don't want those who've divorced and remarried to be permanently separated from Holy Communion, and the resulting consequences for raising families in Faith.

I would think that it would be a deterrent to seeking a divorce if it was assumed that a divorce would lead to not being able to receive Our Lord in Holy Eucharist anymore. Yes, there are some marriages where there is such thing as abuse going on, but for the most part, a couple should stay together even if it's very difficult to do. Our religion wasn't meant to be easy. Our Lord said to take up our cross and follow Him.

We see the Eucharist as necessary for the healing of body and soul, and should not be denied to people unless they have excommunicated themselves from the Faith. It should not be used as something that should force a marriage to stay together. And Faith is never easy.

Do you see the Eucharist as the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Our Lord? If so, then

Quote from: 1 Corinthians Chapter 11

Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

Yes...

Then, dear Nick, you should see with no problem that those in mortal sin and especially those who are public sinners and causers of scandal must not receive Holy Communion, and that it is the holy duty and responsibility of the priest to withhold the sacrament from anyone who he knows to fall under these categories.

They profane the Sacred Species and commit sacrilege, and pile scandal upon scandal.

Cuthbert · « **Reply #38 on:** October 27, 2013, 05:07:58 PM »

Nick, I suggest that you read "The Russian Church & The Papacy" by Vladimir Soloviev. May Almighty God in His mercy put an end to the diabolical disorientation that arose as the evil fruit of the second Vatican council, & may He bring the schismatics into the blessed unity of His One True Church under the primacy of a good & holy pope. I am by no means an able controversialist, I prefer to leave that to Pere Joseph, who along with Hobbledhoy is one of the best two writers on the forum, I will therefore now bow out of the discussion.