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Author Topic: the Churches stance on Nostradamus  (Read 2772 times)

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Offline InfiniteFaith

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the Churches stance on Nostradamus
« on: November 20, 2012, 12:12:47 AM »
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  • are his prophecies condemned by the Church? Are we permitted to believe in them or no?


    Offline Matthew

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    the Churches stance on Nostradamus
    « Reply #1 on: November 20, 2012, 12:54:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    are his prophecies condemned by the Church? Are we permitted to believe in them or no?


    Believe in "them" or no?

    Well, it depends on what "them" is.

    Nostradamus as interpreted by John Doe? By John Q. Public? By the Weekly World News?

    Straight-up Nostradamus is so cryptic it could be predicting just about anything. So we have hundreds of "interpreters" who interpret Nostradamus' quatrains to predict all sorts of things, most of which have not come to pass.

    I'd say it's more of a waste of time than anything else. I've encountered MUCH better (Catholic) prophecies that are worth our attention and belief.

    After all, if nonbelievers are given preternatural abilities (Edgar Cayce?), including prophecy, there is a good chance they're getting it from the devil.

    The devil doesn't know the future. He's just a damn good guesser, because he is so intelligent and sees the thousands of causes behind everything. He *understands* how the butterfly flapping its wings in Tokyo creates a hurricane in the Carribean, and where that hurricane will go. He's a good weatherman.

    We can guess things too, but our minds are so puny they can't guess anything "impressive" unless we're trying to impress a 2-year-old. Flip a light switch, and the lights go off! Haha, I knew that would happen, even though the little kid is giggling because it was unexpected.

    But God alone knows the future -- what will happen based on man's free will. And I doubt He shares that knowledge with random unbelievers...
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    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    the Churches stance on Nostradamus
    « Reply #2 on: November 20, 2012, 01:14:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    are his prophecies condemned by the Church? Are we permitted to believe in them or no?


    Believe in "them" or no?

    Well, it depends on what "them" is.

    Nostradamus as interpreted by John Doe? By John Q. Public? By the Weekly World News?

    Straight-up Nostradamus is so cryptic it could be predicting just about anything. So we have hundreds of "interpreters" who interpret Nostradamus' quatrains to predict all sorts of things, most of which have not come to pass.

    I'd say it's more of a waste of time than anything else. I've encountered MUCH better (Catholic) prophecies that are worth our attention and belief.

    After all, if nonbelievers are given preternatural abilities (Edgar Cayce?), including prophecy, there is a good chance they're getting it from the devil.

    The devil doesn't know the future. He's just a damn good guesser, because he is so intelligent and sees the thousands of causes behind everything. He *understands* how the butterfly flapping its wings in Tokyo creates a hurricane in the Carribean, and where that hurricane will go. He's a good weatherman.

    We can guess things too, but our minds are so puny they can't guess anything "impressive" unless we're trying to impress a 2-year-old. Flip a light switch, and the lights go off! Haha, I knew that would happen, even though the little kid is giggling because it was unexpected.

    But God alone knows the future -- what will happen based on man's free will. And I doubt He shares that knowledge with random unbelievers...


    So we are permitted to accept Nostradamus' prophecies as legitimate prophecies. Our interpretation of those prophecies are a different case however?

    Offline rowsofvoices9

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    the Churches stance on Nostradamus
    « Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 12:49:14 PM »
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  • InfinateFaith said:

    Quote
    So we are permitted to accept Nostradamus' prophecies as legitimate prophecies. Our interpretation of those prophecies are a different case however?


    This should clear us any confusion concerning the Church's condemnation of Nostradamus.  The guy was a fraud and plagiarist.

    http://www.askacatholic.com/_WebPostings/Answers/2000_08AUG/2000AugOnNostradamus.cfm

    Quote
    The Catechism of the Catholic Church gives the following guidance on the subject of foretelling the future:

    Paragraph 2115: "God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints.
     Still, a Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

    "2116: All forms of *divination* are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to 'unveil' the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect and loving fear that we owe to God alone."

    What is the Church's stance on Nostradamus?
    Was he excommunicated?
    Did he profess his Catholic Faith?

    Here's an answer by Warren H. Carroll, Ph.D. on March 1, 1999:

    Nostradamus was a French astrologer of Jєωιѕн origin, who however claimed to be a Catholic. He wrote a book of alleged prophecies in 1555. This book was condemned by the Vatican, but not until after his death. The Church has always condemned astrology. To my knowledge he was not excommunicated, probably due to resistance by the young kings of France in his time and their mother, Catherine de Medici, who were much taken with him. - Dr. Carroll

    And in another answer on the EWTN site, writer Karl Keating observes (April 25, 1998):

    "Nostradamus isn't even mentioned in the massive Catholic Encyclopedia, which suggests the Church hasn't paid much attention to him and certainly hasn't taken his prophecies seriously."


    http://www.answers.com/topic/nostradamus

    Quote
    He sometimes voiced dissension with the teachings of the Catholic priests, who dismissed the study of astrology and the assertions of Copernicus that the Earth and other planets revolved around the sun—contrary to the Christian appraisal of the heavens. Nostradamus's family warned him to hold his tongue, since he could be easily persecuted because of his Jєωιѕн background. Earlier, from his grandfathers he had secretly learned mystical areas of Jєωιѕн wisdom, including the Kabbalah and alchemy.


    Recent research suggests that much of his prophetic work paraphrases collections of ancient end-of-the-world prophecies (mainly Bible-based), supplemented with references to historical events and anthologies of omen reports, and then projects those into the future in part with the aid of comparative horoscopy

    His historical sources include easily identifiable passages from Livy, Suetonius, Plutarch and other classical historians, as well as from medieval chroniclers such as Geoffrey of Villehardouin and Jean Froissart. Many of his astrological references are taken almost word for word from Richard Roussat's Livre de l'estat et mutations des temps of 1549–50.

    One of his major prophetic sources was evidently the Mirabilis Liber of 1522, which contained a range of prophecies by Pseudo-Methodius, the Tiburtine Sibyl, Joachim of Fiore, Savonarola and others (his Preface contains 24 biblical quotations, all but two in the order used by Savonarola).

    Further material was gleaned from the De honesta disciplina of 1504 by Petrus Crinitus,[9] which included extracts from Michael Psellos's De daemonibus, and the De Mysteriis Aegyptiorum (Concerning the mysteries of Egypt...), a book on Chaldean and Assyrian magic by Iamblichus, a 4th century Neo-Platonist.  Latin versions of both had recently been published in Lyon, and extracts from both are paraphrased (in the second case almost literally) in his first two verses, the first of which is appended to this article.

    http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Nostradamus.aspx

    For two centuries the Vatican issued the Index, or a list of forbidden books; Centuries was always on it.

    http://www.cafarus.ch/falseapparitions.html

    LIST OF FALSE APPARITIONS AND REVELATIONS CONDEMNED BY DIOCESAN BISHOPS

    - 1503-1566 Nostradamus, France (See astrology and the glorious coming of Christ in the Catechism of the Catholic Church)




    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus

    Offline Jack in the Box

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    the Churches stance on Nostradamus
    « Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 01:29:43 PM »
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  • The prophecies of Nostradamus are not recognized by the Church. However, it seems that many people read those "prophecies", because they appear to fulfill regularly.
    I personally cannot read them, because its unclarity gets on my nerves, so I get digests of them. If I may say something about prophecies: They are like a puzzle in a box. They reveal gradually the image that it is supposed to give as the puzzle is put together. There remains many "blanks" that may be filled with secondary prophecies such as nostradamus.


    Offline Raoul76

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    the Churches stance on Nostradamus
    « Reply #5 on: November 20, 2012, 06:23:21 PM »
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  • Rows, that doesn't clear it up because you are quoting Vatican II sources.

    I have seen it asserted on the Internet that Centuries was banned in 1781, but when you search Google Books, no one mentions this before the late 20th-century. It seems like some kind of unfounded rumor.

    I took a look at lists of banned books from the 20th century and nothing by Nostradamus was on there, unless I missed it. That being said, I have little interest in Nostradamus' books... Or in Yves Dupont's, for that matter.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.