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Offline s2srea

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The Church in the middle ages...
« on: November 15, 2011, 05:34:42 PM »
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  • Someone told me this about the church in the middle ages, that:


    The Universities built by the church were not available to most people and their teachings were from a decidedly Catholic viewpoint. It was not until the end of the middle ages that universities began to be built by non-church entities, which opened up more studies to more people. Science was never patronized by the church but fought against. Science and mathematics were largely introduced from the far east.

    How accurate is this?


    Offline Darcy

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 08:57:00 PM »
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  • http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=14335&min=0&num=10


    I can understand that it would seem hard to reconcile the Church in the Middle Ages at times and especially for non-believers or raised protestants.
    It was the corruption of individuals but it did not make the Church itself evil.
    Individuals exploited their power within the Church. Remember the Borgias?

    Just like our corrupted government officials don't necessarily make the idea of a free republic evil.
    I have read the complaints of the reformers and really it is not enough to abandon or blame the Church. It never makes me feel that way.
    The corruption could have been taken care of without the reformation. It was a political movement in my opinion to take power amd wealth away from the Church and the socalled "reformers" used the evils they saw as an excuse to do so.

    Even when Martin Luther started to criticize things he saw being done, he did not original intend to destroy the Catholic Church or to leave it.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 09:38:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Someone told me this about the church in the middle ages, that:


    The Universities built by the church were not available to most people and their teachings were from a decidedly Catholic viewpoint. It was not until the end of the middle ages that universities began to be built by non-church entities, which opened up more studies to more people. Science was never patronized by the church but fought against. Science and mathematics were largely introduced from the far east.

    How accurate is this?


    1) The Universities were not available to most people simply because most people were illiterate, and therefore incapable of attending them;

    2) As the Universities were ALL created by the Church, should one be amazed and scandalized that they only taught the truth (i.e., Science in harmony with Faith), especially during that glorious era once known as Christendom, where Church and state were united?

    3) The end of the Middle Ages coincided (and was caused by) the Renaissance: A Romantic nostalgia for Greek paganism in the arts and "sciences" (falsely so-called);

    4) It was at this time that false philosophies began to be heard, most notable the Nominalist philosophy of William of Ockham (which would later inspire Martin Luther), which denied the Realist/Thomist/Aristotelian distinction between "essense" (what a thing is) and "accid;nts" (attributes), and instead proposed -implicitly- that essense was unknowable; all was but a mere label;

    5) Stemming from this, we have a shift in philosophy (which of course had an impact on the so-called hard sciences) from qualitative research to quantitative study: As if to say, "We can't really know the essense of things, but we can make way in their qualities;"

    6) And so the "sciences" moved from asking the question "What is it" to asking simply "How fast; how much; etc.  

    7) Witness the advent of Galileo, Newton, Copernicus, etc.

    8) Of course, this was a sellout caused by the philosophical error of Ockham;

    9) And of course, these errors would not be tolerated in Catholic universities;

    10) And finally, in the days of the Protestant revolution, the now formed heretical universities made this sellout (i.e., The preference for the study of accidents over essences based on the error of Ockham) the basis of what are now erroneously called the "hard sciences."

    11) WIth regard to "fighting against science," the bunk example of Galileo is usually raised.  Problem: Galileo was not condemned for being right, but for proposing a theory which itself could not be proven (i.e., The Sun is the center of the universe), since the dimensions of the universe cannot be known.

    12) As for Oriental scientists and mathmaticians, I can't name a single one, but the Catholic Church certainly has her share, which would prove no hostility exists between sound sciences and true Faith.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline LordPhan

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 09:46:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Someone told me this about the church in the middle ages, that:


    The Universities built by the church were not available to most people and their teachings were from a decidedly Catholic viewpoint. It was not until the end of the middle ages that universities began to be built by non-church entities, which opened up more studies to more people. Science was never patronized by the church but fought against. Science and mathematics were largely introduced from the far east.

    How accurate is this?


    That is almost completely false.

    The Universities were built by the Church that is the part that is true. The Catholic Viewpoint is the Truth, so of course we taught it. Science and Mathematics were not introduced from the far east, Catholics and Muslims were masters of Science and Mathematics. The Far east was not. Science WAS patronized by the Church, and never fought against. Error was fought against. Heresy was fought against, truth was not. Science was encouraged.

    For information on all lies against Catholics that are easily proven wrong such as this one, I suggest you buy the book, "Seven Lies of Catholic History"

    http://www.angeluspress.org/oscatalog/item/8486/seven-lies-about-catholic-history

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 08:07:21 AM »
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  • Offline s2srea

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #5 on: November 16, 2011, 08:36:27 AM »
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  • Thanks everyone  :reading:

    Offline s2srea

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #6 on: November 16, 2011, 08:41:58 AM »
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  • Offline Elizabeth

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 09:06:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Thanks everyone  :reading:

     :gandalf: Thanks from me, too.

    Wish I could afford the 7 Lies book - hope Lord Phan has a minute to share some of what he learned from it!


    Offline LordPhan

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #8 on: November 16, 2011, 11:56:33 AM »
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  • I learned that there are better arguments then I already had at the time I read it :)

    I will go through it tonight and maybe tommorow I'll have time to scan a few pages.

    Offline LordPhan

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 12:08:12 PM »
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  • Actually I'd end up having to scan many pages. Most of it deals with the statements mentioned here.

    Here is another link for it, from TAN: With a video as well.

    https://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/Seven-Lies-About-Catholic-History

    Offline LordPhan

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #10 on: November 16, 2011, 12:09:05 PM »
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  • Offline s2srea

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #11 on: November 16, 2011, 12:12:50 PM »
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  • Nice LP!

    I looked at the Angelus Press link, no e-format. Amazon didn't have it either. I gave up, and was about to buy the hard copy! Thanks!

    Offline MaterDominici

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #12 on: November 16, 2011, 02:17:16 PM »
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  • If anyone is buying the hard copy, feel free to buy it from ME. : )

    https://www.chantcd.com/catholic.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/847/keywords/lies+church+history/
    (says it's out of stock, but it's not really ... I'll go fix it now)

    I have the e-book, but you can only get that straight from TAN.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline PereJoseph

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #13 on: November 16, 2011, 02:53:05 PM »
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  • The problem with the idea of the Church being opposed to "science," as the person mentioned asserts, is that in the Middle Ages the modern concept of "science" did not exist.  Scientia simply refers to the inquiry into knowledge, and there were many different fields and disciplines of of this type of study, of which theology was, naturally, the highest, being followed by metaphysics.  During the so-called "Scientific Revolution," thanks to Descartes, who most likely would have abhorred this development but naïvely put forth his theories separating matter from spirit regardless, the sciences that dealt exclusively with the natural world were given pride of place to the exclusion of the higher sciences, which were (disgustingly, in my opinion) relegated to the category of the "humanities."  

    What is interesting to note about "science" since the mid-1600s is that it is always coupled with philosophical claims, specifically about how people can know things.  The conclusion of those who say "I believe in science" and pit it against "religion" is that one can know things definitively only from sensible experimentation, whereas any discussion of essences, natures, the divine, or other invisible things, is entirely speculative and, frankly, useless.  But the party of modern science destroys its fundamental assertion about what the role of the natural sciences is with this; by jumping arbitrarily from observations of the natural and finite to making claims about the invisible and eternal, they are exiting what they themselves claim is the exclusive province of science, putting the lie to their assertion that God's existence cannot be proved by observation of nature alone.

    That is to say, they are ideologues -- sectaries -- and liars.  They have turned the inquiry into the natural world into a closed system of man-made religious dogma -- with its patron saints and so forth -- and, lately, a death cult and, in some cases, a ѕυιcιdє cult.

    Anyway, in the Middle Ages, the many sciences constituted the study of God in His divine reality and in His creation.  The universities, which were exclusively for clerics (laity were excluded when the universities were first invented), were created by the inspiration of the Popes, who wanted to create learned bodies of clerics to combat the Mohammedan and Judaic scholars both in the Middle East and North Africa and the Iberian peninsula as well as in their incursion into Western libraries, namely through Averroës, Maimonides, and Avicenna.  Aristotles, who was represented to the West most famously through Averroës, truly scared many clerics because of what he showed the mind without the assistance of grace to be capable of accomplishing.  Specifically at the dawn of the great XIIIth century, many young clerics -- following the bad example of inordinate enthusiasm for book-learning of Peter Abelard -- became ardent Averroists after his works became more widespread.  They dedicated long hours to sophistry, becoming fixated on such claims as that the eternity of the world could not be disproven as such or, most famously, monopsychism, which claims that all human beings share one single consciousness or one single agent intellect, being passive participants in the procession of the communal soul through time (or whatever).

    The Popes encouraged the development of studia (houses of study) and their concentration in a single place (places of the study of all the sciences -- that is, universities) amongst the clergy in order to combat these wicked doctrines and in order to faithfully assimilate anything good or useful in Averroës and Aristotle, &c.  This was a defensive effort in order to protect the Faith from those who claimed that philosophy or the natural sciences disproved certain parts of it.  For instance, many Averroists claimed that while some things were certainly true by Faith, they were also proven to be false by logic and material reality, but that this did not make them any less true in the realm of Faith, though they did not abide in any experienced reality whatsoever (sound familiar ?).  The universities were created to destroy these sophistries and strengthen the Faith by using its enemies' own medicine against them.

    Of course, Paris being what it was at the time, it was the pinnacle and center of all of this action, and the University of Paris became the most important and influential center of theological study for four centuries, making Paris, in a way, the sort of second capital of the Catholic world.  It was not until 1760, after the public infidelity of Louis XV when he brought his mistress to the front during the Seven Years' War, that Paris's culture as the most Catholic city in Europe was replaced with being the most worldly city in Europe.

    Here is a summary of the Parisian condemnations of the propositions of the radical Aristotelians and Averroists :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condemnations_of_1210%E2%80%931277

    Offline CathMomof7

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    The Church in the middle ages...
    « Reply #14 on: November 17, 2011, 09:50:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Someone told me this about the church in the middle ages, that:


    The Universities built by the church were not available to most people and their teachings were from a decidedly Catholic viewpoint


    This is actually hilarious when you think about it.  The first universities, as we understand them, were built by the Church.  They were built to teach canon law, theology, and philosophy.  Would we expect them to teach Islamic studies?  LOL.  Of course they were Catholic.  

    .
    Quote
    It was not until the end of the middle ages that universities began to be built by non-church entities, which opened up more studies to more people.


    I am not even sure what this means.  Leisure, in it's medieval form, meant freedom from responsibilities and duties of work to engage in learning.  Most average people did not have this luxury.  If they mean that by the late middle ages, non-clerics were admitted to university, then I think this would be accurate.  But only those of course with financial or intellectual gifts.  


     
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    Science was never patronized by the church but fought against. Science and mathematics were largely introduced from the far east.


    Umm. No.  After the fall of the Roman Empire, the ONLY place that scientific knowledge acquired from the Greeks and from the rest of the world was kept in the monasteries.  Agriculture, math, astronomy, architecture, geometry, and the natural sciences were studied and utilized and put into practice by the clerics.  That is how science stayed alive during those dark times.  As the universities were being built in the Middle Ages, these texts were used and studied.   St. Albert the Great left an exhaustive collection of writings on all the natural sciences that were fairly accurate.  


    Quote
    How accurate is this?


    Not very.  Just do your research.  The Middle Ages was really a very glorious time for science and the Church.  The modernists, however, want you to believe that the Church was this oppressive, evil, organization that held people down, kept them, uneducated, and ill informed so they could have power.  It's a lie.

    The so-called "Enlightenment" sought to shift the focus of science from God to man.  Man became the center of the universe.  

    Science today is a joke.  The education system today is a joke.  We are de-volving.  We have less knowledge today than our ancestors.  And the knowledge we do have, we dismiss as unnecessary and sentimental.