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Offline Pelly

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« on: March 20, 2013, 10:39:03 AM »
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  • I had the idea of a choir earlier. I wanted the forum to sing a Passion, but it's nearly impossible. I've sang in the temporary choir of an NO salesian parish, but since I can't attend a Trad choir, I invite you to the CathInfo choir!
    Our first song is an Easter song and this will be the Easter gift of CathInfo (if we have a St. Patrick's skin, so why not?): The Victory Choir from Händel. I've sang this in the NO choir and I love this song.
    You can view the sheet here. And is an excellent rendition of the King's College Choir. Now we need:
    - minimum 5 sopranos, altos, tenors and basses,

    AUDITIONS:
    sopranos:
    - none yet;
    altos:
    Pelly;
    males (males should give their range):
    -none yet

    You must learn the sheet, sing it with the instrumental, upload the acapella somewhere. Then I'll assemble and render it on my computer. Please post the link of the sound file.

    Audtitons can be made in this thread. Please add:
    - your username;
    - your voice range;
    - a sample of your singing voice.

    If you're admitted to the choir, then you can proceed to the actual singing.


    Offline Pelly

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    « Reply #1 on: March 21, 2013, 02:47:06 AM »
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  • Also, I'm going to get the instrumental. If there is anybody want to join, then please post it.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #2 on: March 21, 2013, 04:56:53 AM »
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  • I appreciate your effort, Pelly, but I have to ask, why would you want to
    choose a Protestant song from a Protestant website?  

    Associating with the rituals and music of heretics is called FALSE EcuмENISM,
    which is traditionally NOT CATHOLIC.  It has become commonplace in
    Newchurch, though, as part of the One World Religion movement.



    Their repertoire is as follows:  



        A Mighty Fortress Is Our God
        Abide with Me, Fast Falls the Eventide
        Ah, Holy Jesus, How Hast Thou Offended
        All For Jesus
        All Glory, Laud and Honor  <------- they have a Protestant version of this here
        Alleluia, Sing to Jesus
        America the Beautiful
        And Can It Be
        Angels We Have Heard on High
        Away In a Manger

        Be Thou My Vision
        Christ the Lord Is Risen Today
        Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing
        Come, Christians, Join to Sing
        Crown Him with Many Crowns
        Eternal Father, Strong to Save
        Fairest Lord Jesus
        For the Beauty of the Earth
        Gentle Mary Laid Her Child
        God of Our Fathers
        Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah
        Hallelujah, What a Savior
        He Leadeth Me: O Blessed Thought
        Holy, Holy, Holy
        I Greet Thee Who My Sure Redeemer Art
        I Sing the Mighty Power of God
        Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise
        Infant Holy, Infant Lowly
        It Is Well with My Soul
        Jesus, Thou Joy of Loving Hearts
        Joy to the World! The Lord Is Come
        Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence

        Lift High the Cross
        Like A River Glorious
        Make Me a Captive, Lord
        May the Mind of Christ My Savior
        My Jesus, I Love Thee
        Now Thank We All Our God
        O Come All Ye Faithful
        O Come O Come Emmanuel

        O God, Our Help In Ages Past
        O Sacred Head, Now Wounded
        O the Deep, Deep Love of Jesus
        Onward, Christian Soldiers
        Praise, My Soul, the King of Heaven
        Rejoice the Lord Is King
        Savior, Like a Shepherd Lead Us
        Silent Night
        Soldiers of Christ, Arise
        The Church's One Foundation
        The Lord's My Shepherd
        Thine Be the Glory
        This Is My Father's World
        We Are God's People
        We Come O Christ To You
        When I Survey the Wondrous Cross



    The few in bold above are Catholic titles I recognize, and the others
    are all Protestant titles.  I have not listened to them on this site,
    though.  

    You have to be very careful in music because when a Protestant
    convert hears a Catholic choir sing music that he recalls having heard
    in his old protestant services, it evokes in him the heresies they taught
    there, which he is now trying to leave behind, so it makes it all the
    more tortuous for such converts to remain Catholic!  

    Also, even if the music does NOT contain any objective heresy,
    the fact that it is commonly heard in the Protestant setting, where
    heresy abounds, the implication of all those heresies is communicated
    by the music simply by association.  

    This was explained to me by Michael Malone, a convert (now deceased)
    who went to great lengths to evangelize and attempt to share his
    newfound faith with other Protestants.  He said it can DESTROY all your
    work of helping someone convert to the True Faith, when you sing
    those songs that he recalls from his past.  

    This is why the modern Novus Ordo penchant of having "A Mighty
    Fortress Is Our God" or "Amazing Grace" and the like at Mass or at a
    funeral, is offensive to pious ears, and smacks of heresy.  This is
    important.




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    Offline Pelly

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    « Reply #3 on: March 21, 2013, 05:39:29 AM »
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  • I thought that Händel was a Catholic, since I think that he wrote Masses. (Another question is whether Mozart is acceptable, since he was a Mason). So, if it is certain that he was a Protestant, then: - either I should fall in love with a Catholic Easter song (Resurrexit is my choice) or cancel the choir and resume it at Pentecost.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #4 on: March 21, 2013, 06:20:38 AM »
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  • There is a interesting description for Crown Him With Many Crowns on the
    website above.  In this "history" you can easily see how Protestants have
    feared to have music that might seem too "Catholic
    ."  And what is it that
    makes it so, primarily?  Doctrine!  But like I said before, doctrine is not
    the only issue.  It's important but not everything.  When it comes to music
    there is a lot more to be concerned with besides doctrine alone.  



    ////
    Hymn Story:

    The text of this great hymn is a composite or combination by two different authors, both of whom were inspired by Revelation 19:12. The first printing was a six-stanza hymn in Hymns of the Heart (1851) by Matthew Bridges, who later in his life left the Church of England and became a Roman Catholic. Bridges' hymn was originally titled: "The Song of the Seraphs."

    In 1874, Godfrey Thring feared that some of the Bridges' verses spoke too much of Catholic doctrine. Verse two, for example, said:

    Crown Him the virgin's Son, the God incarnate born,
    Whose arm those crimson trophies won which now His brow adorn;
    Fruit of the mystic rose, as of that rose the stem;
    The root whence mercy ever flows, the Babe of Bethlehem.

    He wrote six new stanzas for the hymn. The new six stanza text was published in Thring's Hymns and Sacred Lyrics."

    Over the years, the twelve stanzas (six by Bridges and six by Thring) became intermingled in various hymnbooks.

    Hence, the hymn that had two entirely different six-stanza texts appears in most hymnals with a composite 4 stanza text.
    ////




    On this linked website, in the recordings, you can easily hear the BREAKS
    in the accompaniment, organ (or brass), which breaks are intended to signal
    the congregation when to breathe.  It is a kind of presumed participation of
    the whole body of people in attendance that they will sing with the choir at
    all times.  Keep in mind that the Protestants pretty much have two things:  
    they have preaching and they have singing. They don't have any
    sacrament, they don't have any sacrifice, they don't have any authority, they
    don't have any jurisdiction, they don't have any tradition due to the fact that
    they reject the principle (even though they accrue it nonetheless, in practice)
    and they do not have any sanctifying grace.  So singing is really a big deal, as
    that's pretty much it, except for preaching.  You might say "but they have
    prayer!"  Well, they might think they have prayer, but God doesn't hear the
    prayers of heretics, so what good is it?  

    This break in the accompaniment is like a fish out of water in a Catholic Church.
    Certainly, an organist can employ a sudden stopping of the organ at key points,
    but to do that every time the end of a phrase comes, just to be sure the
    congregation knows when to breathe is something that destroys the flow, and
    the LINE of the music, turning it into a mechanical, juke-box kind of thing,
    without life and without holiness.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #5 on: March 21, 2013, 06:45:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pelly
    I thought that Händel was a Catholic, since I think that he wrote Masses. (Another question is whether Mozart is acceptable, since he was a Mason). So, if it is certain that he was a Protestant, then: - either I should fall in love with a Catholic Easter song (Resurrexit is my choice) or cancel the choir and resume it at Pentecost.


    I'm not saying that Handel was Protestant (I'm not talking about that actually).
    The point is, how is the music used in practice over the centuries?  There is
    a lot in TRADITION, you see.  

    Johann Sebastian Bach was a Lutheran, technically.  HOWEVER, some scholars
    argue that he was a Catholic at heart, and wrote very Catholic music, but he
    had a large family and many mouths to feed and a major truckload of talent,
    so the market was supportive of his music for Lutheran use, which is why
    he did what he did, which probably had an effect on his compositions, but
    no one can argue that his St. Matthew's Passion, for example, is not Catholic.

    Some of Handel's music is used in Catholic settings and some isn't.  The same
    goes for Mozart.  For a long time Mozart's works were unacceptable in the
    Church for the reason you mention, but over the many years, it was gradually
    introduced and some motets are now quite dear to Catholics, especially
    his famous Ave Verum Corpus, for example.  Mozart among musicians is
    thought to be the sole occupant of a very special category, and is thought
    to be somewhat untouchable, due to his enormous talent and high development
    thereof.  Mozart said of the Gregorian Chant Dies Irae, that he admired it so,
    that he would have exchanged all of his life's work for the credit of having
    been the composer of that one piece.  That's something to think about!  And
    the NovusOrdoNonsense has abandoned the Dies Irae -  why?  Well, it's too
    much 'doom and gloom.'  But apparently said 'doom and gloom' was of no
    concern to the greatest musician in the history of music.  It is a mark of
    his greatness to have such discernment!  

    Mozart's final composition, his Requiem Mass, is so entirely Catholic that no
    one dares to argue otherwise.  It has a Dies Irae that seems to rival the
    Chant version, in the opinion of many.  

    One of Handel's very nice hymns is "Hear Thy Children Gentlest Mother."  And
    as you might suspect, since it is Marian, the Prots shun it like the plague,
    even though Martin Luther had a preference for Marian hymns.  

    This is not a simple topic.  It takes a lot of experience to have discernment,
    and there are a lot of differences in opinions.  Also, over time, what is
    acceptable and what is not changes.  There was a time in the Church when
    polyphony was forbidden.  In the day of Giovanni Pierluigi de Palestrina, when
    he first started composing, his music was blacklisted.  It was only near the
    end of his life that finally the Pope started allowing it to be sung at Mass.  Only
    men singers were allowed, and traditionally only a single melody line was
    allowed: NO HARMONY whatsoever.  It seems this may have been one of the
    issues that affected the division with the Orthodox, whose liturgical chant uses a
    lot of harmony, most tellingly a major fifth in the bass as a kind of drone.  This
    is never done in Gregorian Chant.


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    Offline clare

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    « Reply #6 on: March 21, 2013, 08:02:12 AM »
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  • I'm pretty sure Handel was a Protestant.

    Offline Maria Elizabeth

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    « Reply #7 on: March 21, 2013, 06:53:23 PM »
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  • You could sing songs from the blue hymnal put out by the SSPX.

    Suggestions might include:
    * All Glory Laud and Honor, p. 41 (Palm Sunday Procession Hymn)
    * Blessed Lamb, p. 48
    * O Sons and Daughters, p. 60
    * The Strife Is O'er, p. 64

    You could also sing Palestrina
    * O Bone Jesu
    * Bonus Est Dominus
    * Jesu Rex Admirabilis

    Or some other composers:
    * Jesu Dulcis Memoria, by Murphy
    * Pange Lingua, by Kodaly



    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #8 on: March 21, 2013, 10:43:43 PM »
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  • Maria Elizabeth has the right idea:  constructive suggestions!

    A popular version of the Magnificat in Latin Chant alternating with harmony
    is found in the St. Gregory Hymnal,* #216.  The choir sings verse 1 in unison,
    then verse 2 (and all subsequent even verses) in harmony, found at the bottom
    of the page, then returns to unison for verse 3 (and subsequent odd verses).  
    The harmony is given in 3 parts "for two part chorus or 3 equal voices" but can
    easily be expanded to 4 parts, with Tenors on part 3 and Basses pick the notes
    they would sing, which are not shown on the page.  What works well is for the
    Basses to remain on an F for the first half of the harmony (4 "measures"), then
    sing C, G, C, F for each of the final 4 "measures."  (There is no time signature
    so the "measures" are arbitrary.  The harmony section is effectively 4/4 time
    but the first half, the odd verses, have no time sig, so it is customary not to
    switch back and forth from time, no time, time, no time, etc.)

    *St. Gregory Hymnal and Catholic Choir Book, complete edition, Newmann Press.

    One Eastertide hymn that everyone knows and some don't like much because
    it sometimes gets to be monotonous, is O filii et filiae (English trans. = Ye Sons
    and Daughters).   If it's done well, it's pretty good, but it's easy to mess it up.  
    Gregorian Chant has a niche.  

    But this is sung when the Alleluia has not been uttered for 40 days, and it is
    a real treat to hear the joyful Alleluia.  It should be made to sound GREAT!

    One way to make it more interesting is to have different voices do prominence
    for different verses.  If you have a choir, you can have the Altos sing more
    prominently for verse 2 while the rest of the choir backs off or even sings
    "Oos" instead of words, then the whole choir re-join for the 3 Alleluias, then
    have the Tenors sing louder for verse 3, etc., then Sopranos for verse 4, etc.,
    then Basses for verse 5, etc.  Then have everyone do verse 6 together.  

    This is very effective, actually.  Here are the words (I put hyphens between
    sentences because Chant should not be interrupted audibly):

    It begins with 3 times Alleluia, which is the repeated chorus, in unison.
    1. O filii et filiae - Rex coelestis, Rex gloriae - Morte surrexit hodie - Alleluia (+ 3x)

    Then the Alto solo sings (with the other voices in soft background, typical):
    2. Et mane prima sabbati - Ad ostium monumenti - Accesserunt discipuli - Allel...

    Tenor solo:
    3. Et Maria Magdalene - Et Jacobi et Salome - Venerunt corpus ungere - Alleluia...

    Soprano solo:
    4. In albis seden Angelus - Praedixit mulieribus - In Galliaea_est Dominus - Ale...

    Bass solo:
    5. Et Joannes Apostolus - Cucurrit Petro citius - Monumento venit prius - Alleluia...

    Tutti:
    6. Discipulis astantibus - In medio stetit Christus - Dicens: Pax vobis omnibus - A...

    Do you see how the various verses are very appropriate for each of the voices?  
    Each verse's message is magnified by the quality of the voices singing it.
    The Basses finish with St. John the Beloved Apostle waiting at the tomb for St.
    Peter, the prince of the Apostles, and then everyone sings of Our Lord appearing
    to everyone gathered in fear, in the Upper Room. saying, "Peace be with you."

    The same pattern can be used a second time, with the Altos on verse 7 singing
    about St. Thomas not having been present, then the Tenors sing in v. 8 of him
    announcing his incredulity unless he sees the side, the feet, the hands of Our
    Lord, then the Sopranos take v. 9, when St. Thomas puts his finger into the
    wounds in His hands, and feet and his hand into His side, and says "Thou art my
    God!" And then the Basses sing the words of Our Lord, the words for our time,
    "Beati qui non viderunt, et firmiter crediderunt, vitam aeternam habebunt."

    And it finishes with tutti: In hoc festo sanctissimo - Sit laus et jubilatio -
    Benedicamus Domino - Alleluia!
    (+ 3x) And De quibus nos humillimas -
    Devotas atque debitas - Deo dicamus Gratias - Alleluia!
    (+ 3x).


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #9 on: March 22, 2013, 01:48:08 AM »
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  • I made a mistake two posts above this, when I should have
    said that "Hear Thy Children Gentlest Mother" was composed
    by Michael Haydn, not by Handel.  



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    Offline Pelly

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    « Reply #10 on: March 22, 2013, 02:49:16 AM »
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  • I have Jesu, Rex Admirabilis in my school songbook. CONCLUDED: program change to "Jesu, Rex admirabilis"


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #11 on: March 22, 2013, 07:35:25 AM »
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  • Monteverdi Choir recording of Jesu Rex Admirabilis:



    It seems they are using 2 part women and 1 men for the first half, then
    switch to 3 part men for the second half.



    Here is an all-time favorite (maybe for later), Sicut Cervus by Palestrina.



    This recording shows the 4-part music on the screen while the singers are
    heard.  The sound isn't the best but at least you can see the music while
    you listen.  This one, following, is a better recording with the same feature:



    Sicut cervus desiderat ad fontes aquarum,
    Ita desiderat anima mea ad te deus.

    Like as the hart desireth the waterbrooks,
    So longeth my soul after thee, O God.

    Translation:
    As the hart (deer) longs for running streams,
    So does my soul long for Thee, O God.

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    Offline Pelly

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    « Reply #12 on: March 22, 2013, 11:31:11 AM »
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  • O Fili et Filae added, because it resembles in Alleluia tone used in my (another) NO Church.
    EDIT: found the Liszt Franz version.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #13 on: March 24, 2013, 10:12:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pelly
    O Fili et Filae added, because it resembles in Alleluia tone used in my (another) NO Church.
    EDIT: found the Liszt Franz version.



    I think is only common in Europe/eastern Europe.


    In America you'll find , or .

    You'll end up with chaos if you try to do the Liszt version on the Internet unless
    it's only European singers or else very proficient musicians.


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