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Author Topic: 1 Timothy 4:3.... concerns?  (Read 833 times)

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Offline gobosox91

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1 Timothy 4:3.... concerns?
« on: April 18, 2012, 06:42:36 PM »
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  • "They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."

    Read Barnes' notes on the Bible.
    http://bible.cc/1_timothy/4-3.htm

    does it ever seem like that's what the RCC practices? Should we leave?

    Offline s2srea

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    1 Timothy 4:3.... concerns?
    « Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 06:44:45 PM »
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  • gobosox91- I posted this on the other forum you started- have you considered it?:



    gobosox91- If I may give you a recommendation in fighting your scruples- retreat!

    Retreat to a life of prayer- get away from the 'debate', for now- it will only fuel your scruples and doubt. Pray; meditate; say your Rosary; receive our Blessed Lord, and ask Him after you receive his most Precious Body in your Thanksgiving for help. He wants this of you; you are trying to attack this on an intellectual level, and if you continue, may indeed lose. Its happened many a time before. Be assured you are not the first confronted with this. Those who are successful, are the ones who follow the advice of a good spiritual director (your priest) and who turn to prayer as above. You need the protection of Christ and his Blessed Mother now, more than anything else. Once you can confirm that you have their help, you can revisit these issues- but not until then.

    You will be in my prayers, indeed.


    Offline s2srea

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    1 Timothy 4:3.... concerns?
    « Reply #2 on: April 18, 2012, 06:46:29 PM »
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  • And you should stick with Catholic commentary, not protestant.

    Haydock:
    Quote from: Haydock

    Ver. 3. Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, &c. Here says St. Chrysostom[1] are foretold and denoted the heretics called Encratites, the Marcionites, Manicheans, &c. who condemned all marriages as evil, as may be seen in St. Irenæus, Epiphanius, St. Augustine, Theodoret, &c. These heretics held a god who was the author of good things, and another god who was the author or cause of all evils; among the latter they reckoned, marriages, fleshmeats, wine, &c. The doctrine of Catholics is quite different, when they condemn the marriages of priests and of such as have made a vow to God to lead always a single life; or when the Church forbids persons to eat flesh in Lent, or on fasting-days, unless their health require it. We hold that marriage in itself is not only honourable, but a sacrament of divine institution. We believe and profess that the same only true God is the author of all creatures which are good of themselves; that all eatables are to be eaten with thanksgiving, and none of them to be rejected, as coming from the author of evil. When we condemn priests for marrying, it is for breaking their vows and promises made to God of living unmarried, and of leading a more perfect life; we condemn them with the Scripture, which teaches us that vows made are to be kept; with St. Paul, who in the next chap. (ver. 12) teaches us, that they who break such vows incur their damnation. When the Church, which we are commanded to obey, enjoins abstinence from flesh, or puts a restraint as to the times of eating on days of humiliation and fasting, it is by way of self-denial and mortification: so that it is not the meats, but the transgression of the precept, that on such occasions defiles the consciences of the transgressors. "You will object, (says St. Chrysostom) that we hinder persons from marrying; God forbid," &c. St. Augustine, (lib. 30. contra Faustum. chap. vi.) "You see (says he) the great difference in abstaining from meats for mortification sake, and as if God was not the author of them." We may observe that God, in the law of Moses, prohibited swine's flesh and many other eatables; and that even the apostles, in the Council of Jerusalem, forbad the Christians, (at least about Antioch) to eat at that time blood and things strangled; not that they were bad of themselves, as the Manicheans pretended. (Witham) --- St. Paul here speaks of the Gnostics and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage and the use of all kind of meat, because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle: whereas the Church of God so far from condemning marriage, holds it to be a holy sacrament, and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever, in proper times and seasons, though she does not judge all kinds of diet proper for days of fasting and penance. (Challoner) --- We may see in the earliest ages[centuries] of Christianity, that some of the most infamous and impure heretics that ever went out of the Church, condemned all marriage as unlawful, at the same time allowing the most unheard of abominations: men without religion, without faith, without modesty, without honour. See St. Clement of Alexandria, lib. 3. Strom.

    Offline gobosox91

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    1 Timothy 4:3.... concerns?
    « Reply #3 on: April 18, 2012, 06:50:53 PM »
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  • Wow. awesome.

    Offline Caraffa

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    1 Timothy 4:3.... concerns?
    « Reply #4 on: April 18, 2012, 06:53:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: gobosox91
    "abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."


    Kind of like how there are Fundamentalists and Baptists who say that drinking alcohol is always sinful.
    Pray for me, always.


    Offline s2srea

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    1 Timothy 4:3.... concerns?
    « Reply #5 on: April 18, 2012, 06:53:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: gobosox91
    Wow. awesome.


    Here's a link to the website for the Haydock commentary:

    http://haydock1859.tripod.com/

    Offline CathMomof7

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    1 Timothy 4:3.... concerns?
    « Reply #6 on: April 19, 2012, 08:58:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: gobosox91
    "They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."

    Read Barnes' notes on the Bible.
    http://bible.cc/1_timothy/4-3.htm

    does it ever seem like that's what the RCC practices? Should we leave?


    Unfortunately, many people read the Bible and have no idea what the author is talking about.  Do you really believe that St. Paul was talking about priests and the practices of the early Church and Christians?  If you are a Protestant, probably so.

    But, this is not the case.  St. Paul was most likely referring the to practices of the Gnostics.  If you have never heard about the Gnostics, please read about them.

    Gnostics have been around a long time and their influence is still in existence today.  Many Gnostics believed that the physical world and everything in it was evil.  Sex was particularly so, and they forbid all their members, or the elites at least, from marrying.  This idea survived through the Shaker movement.  Some of the Gnostics also concluded that certain animals were unclean, like the Jews, and therefore could never be consumed.  St. Paul was simply warning us that these ideas are false.  

    Please, if you are sincere in your understanding of the True Faith, you must avoid talking to Protestants and reading Protestant Bibles without a good Catholic commentary.

    Do not confuse the practices of the Gnostics with the practice of virtue.  It is a moral good to fast and abstain from certain acts and from food for certain reasons.  It is untrue, however, that these things, as they exist, are in an of themselves evil.  

    You really could benefit from a Traditional Catholic study partner.