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Author Topic: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved  (Read 8337 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2020, 07:19:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 28, 2020, 08:16:46 PM
    Point out the name calling in my post please.

    You accused me of and denounced me for “name-calling”.  Please point out where in my post I actually did this.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #31 on: May 29, 2020, 07:27:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on May 29, 2020, 01:33:09 AM
    .
    He was consecrated without Pius's approval, although later confirmed by him.

    Again, there’s no record of any Italian bishop from Pius XII’s lifetime.  Even the clandestinely-consecrated bishops eventually show up on catholic-hierarchy.  If all we have for proof is some paper that could have been forged, we’re dealing with another Ambrose Moran scenario.  If this is a legitimate Catholic bishop, the Vatican must have some record of him.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #32 on: May 29, 2020, 09:29:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 29, 2020, 07:27:15 AM
    Again, there’s no record of any Italian bishop from Pius XII’s lifetime.  Even the clandestinely-consecrated bishops eventually show up on catholic-hierarchy.  If all we have for proof is some paper that could have been forged, we’re dealing with another Ambrose Moran scenario.  If this is a legitimate Catholic bishop, the Vatican must have some record of him.
    .
    I don't disagree, I was simply answering the question.
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    Kalata's situation is exceptional; he was clandestinely consecrated by Bishop Jan Chrysostom (who himself was clandestinely consecrated and who died somewhat recently as well, I believe) in communist Czechoslovakia.  The consecrations were without papal approval (although were later accepted by Pope Pius XII) and done out of urgency for fear of the Jesuit order going extinct in the region due to persecution.  You can read more about the (very interesting) details here: http://www.thetradforum.com//index.php?topic=128.msg1133#msg1133
    .
    catholichierarchy.org is just run by a layman, Terry Boyle. It isn't an official register of Catholic bishops, despite its thoroughness. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #33 on: May 29, 2020, 09:38:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on May 29, 2020, 09:29:55 AM
    catholichierarchy.org is just run by a layman, Terry Boyle. It isn't an official register of Catholic bishops, despite its thoroughness.

    I get it, but he has to be relying on some official data source.  There's too much data there to be attributable to Google searches, including consecrators, co-consecrators, exact dates of ordinations and consecrations, etc.  I'm guessing he's tapped into some Vatican database that he accesses and builds out the HTML from.

    Even if this bishop had originally been clandestinely ordained and latter accepted, they do (like Kalata) then show up on the list.  I'm a bit perplexed about an Italian being clandestinely consecrated.  That tended to happen in Communist territory.

    Bishop Thuc also had a similar papal mandate to clandestinely consecrate when needed.  In those cases, there is actual PRIOR papal approval, except that it's not made public until the bishop is able to safely come out of the shadows.
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #34 on: May 29, 2020, 11:22:22 PM »
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    • I received an email yesterday and I did answer all of the questions put to me. If you use the internet for research hang it up. In several colleges, it is not permitted to be used for research papers. Yes, I did meet him and he exists with valid seals on the docuмents. As to the comments on the Missionary Sisters website I asked Mother Marie De Montfort what she meant by the term "pure" and she said" I used that term in relation to dealing with a Bishop that had actually been given a Mandate by the Holy Father. Not someone who made Bishops who had no solid training in the Church."  
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    Offline Endeavor

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #35 on: May 30, 2020, 07:11:34 AM »
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    • Why is no one allowed to know the name of this bishop (actually, a Cardinal according to Fr. Kosek). There are told it is not their business by Kosek when they ask. Doesn't that seem curious? If everything is in order why not let the information be known instead of all the secrecy?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #36 on: May 30, 2020, 07:29:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Endeavor on May 30, 2020, 07:11:34 AM
    Why is no one allowed to know the name of this bishop (actually, a Cardinal according to Fr. Kosek). There are told it is not their business by Kosek when they ask. Doesn't that seem curious? If everything is in order why not let the information be known instead of all the secrecy?
    I suspect it's the same reason why no one knows who the Hidden Pope is ....except for a select few.
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #37 on: May 30, 2020, 02:29:51 PM »
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    • I truly feel sorry for the way you and your family were treated. There is no reason to hide things from you and your family. I think it is the tough guy bravado of Kosik to hold something over your head. I promise you prayers in these difficult times. 
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    Offline richard

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #38 on: May 30, 2020, 07:00:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on May 30, 2020, 07:29:55 AM
    I suspect it's the same reason why no one knows who the Hidden Pope is ....except for a select few.
    Hidden Pope?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #39 on: May 30, 2020, 08:05:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on May 30, 2020, 07:29:55 AM
    I suspect it's the same reason why no one knows who the Hidden Pope is ....except for a select few.

    Yep.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #40 on: May 30, 2020, 08:10:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on May 29, 2020, 11:22:22 PM
    Yes, I did meet him and he exists with valid seals on the docuмents.

    And your background/training in recognizing a “valid seal”?  His name wouldn’t happen to be Ambrose Moran, would it?
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #41 on: May 30, 2020, 10:14:28 PM »
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    • The line of work I'm in deals with forgeries etc. One interesting thing I did notice was that one of the groups trying to pass off a fake mandate by Pope PiusXI was really bad!!!!
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #42 on: May 31, 2020, 05:08:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Aristotl on May 30, 2020, 10:14:28 PM
    The line of work I'm in deals with forgeries etc. One interesting thing I did notice was that one of the groups trying to pass off a fake mandate by Pope PiusXI was really bad!!!!

    In this day and age, I’m afraid that a docuмent does not suffice. That’s why the Church keeps official records.  If there’s no official record of this man’s consecration, then it cannot be accepted as valid.  What is the explanation for why he doesn’t appear in the official records of the Church?  If this man was in fact hanging around the Vatican, he would have had access to the equipment necessary to produce a seal.
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    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: The answer to the Mystery Italian Bishop-Solved
    « Reply #43 on: May 31, 2020, 06:34:07 AM »
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    • You should know that you can not trust the internet for research. If you do I have some oceanfront property in Tennessee to sell you HAHA. That was the first place I checked the Pius XII archives and that is where I found the proof.  Then I met him and saw the proof.
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