Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: Conspiracy_Factist on August 10, 2015, 07:08:33 PM
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a family member commited ѕυιcιdє, wondering what your thoughts on the below are, from novus order
The Church’s view is that we should leave the judgment of those who commit ѕυιcιdє to God. The Church still teaches that there is a hell, understood as a definitive separation from the love of God, but leaves it to God to decide who should go there. The Catechism, however, offers words of great hope: “We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to Him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives” (CCC#2283). Therefore, we offer Mass for the repose of the soul of a ѕυιcιdє victim, invoking God’s tender love and mercy, and His healing grace for the grieving loved ones. The Church also prays for the close relations of the deceased, that the loving and healing touch of God will comfort those torn apart by the impact of the ѕυιcιdє.
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/10/22/can_catholics_who_commit_ѕυιcιdє_be_given_a_church_burial/1109137
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This is in contradiction with traditional Church teaching.
Traditionally, ѕυιcιdєs are not given a funeral Mass, nor were they even allowed to be buried in consecrated ground.
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I thought that traditionally, before Vatican II, the Church denied Christian burial for ѕυιcιdєs because ѕυιcιdє was a mortal sin. Similarly, I thought the Church also denied Christian burial to other public sinners. But now, since Vatican II, they give Christian burial to everyone, except for nαzιs (seriously).
I had a relative who was a possible ѕυιcιdє. He was given a Novus Ordo funeral and burial.
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I thought that traditionally, before Vatican II, the Church denied Christian burial for ѕυιcιdєs because ѕυιcιdє was a mortal sin. Similarly, I thought the Church also denied Christian burial to other public sinners. But now, since Vatican II, they give Christian burial to everyone, except for nαzιs (seriously).
I had a relative who was a possible ѕυιcιdє. He was given a Novus Ordo funeral and burial.
Isn't it appropriate to give the deceased the benefit of the doubt in "possible ѕυιcιdє" scenarios?
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Isn't it appropriate to give the deceased the benefit of the doubt in "possible ѕυιcιdє" scenarios?
I do not know what would be right in that case.
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From: http://www.traditioninaction.org/banners/A_002_DefeatI_1000.htm
•ѕυιcιdє is murder
The man who takes his own life, or helps another to do so, violates the Fifth Commandment, Thou shall not kill, and commits a crime before God - a mortal sin.
•ѕυιcιdє is an act of despair
The Catholic may not despair but relies on God’s mercy and help, which is often nearest when the need is greatest. Despair that ends in ѕυιcιdє is a sin against the providence of God (St. Thomas, Summa Theologica II,II, q. 64, a. 5).
•ѕυιcιdє is a revolt against the will of God
God is the author of life and only He can determine when a man should die (Deut 32:39). Self-destruction is a presumptuous encroachment upon the divine rights and shows contempt for God, by flinging back at Him His greatest gift to man, which is life (St. Augustine, City of God, 1, I, chap 20, P.L. vol. 41, col. 35).
•ѕυιcιdє entails Hell
According to Catholic Morals, one who commits ѕυιcιdє goes to Hell. That is why the Church for many centuries denied Catholic burial, Masses and religious rites to those who committed ѕυιcιdє (Code of Canon Law, 1917, cans. 1240, 1241, 2339).
•ѕυιcιdє is an act of cowardice
Instead of facing the sufferings God gives and gaining the merits from them, the one who commits ѕυιcιdє fearfully deserts the battlefield. St Paul tells us to live and die for the Lord, and never for ourselves (Rom 14:7-8).
•ѕυιcιdє defrauds society, of which man is a member
The person who commits ѕυιcιdє brings sorrow and shame to his family. Many times a ѕυιcιdє can also cause an unjust moral blame to be placed on another member of the family. The person who commits ѕυιcιdє harms those members of society to which he owes a debt, and also gives scandal to all of society. It is worse to take one’s own life than that of another, because the man who commits ѕυιcιdє cowardly escapes the consequences of his act for society.
•Whoever assists a ѕυιcιdє is an accomplice of this crime
The person who helps another commit ѕυιcιdє also commits a mortal sin. St. Augustine writes that "it is never licit to kill another: even if he should wish it, indeed even if he request it or, hanging between life and death, he begs for help in freeing the soul struggling against the bonds of the body and longing to be released; nor is it licit even when a sick person is no longer able to live" (Ep. 204, 5: CSEL 57, 320).
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a family member commited ѕυιcιdє, wondering what your thoughts on the below are, from novus order
The Church’s view is that we should leave the judgment of those who commit ѕυιcιdє to God. The Church still teaches that there is a hell, understood as a definitive separation from the love of God, but leaves it to God to decide who should go there. The Catechism, however, offers words of great hope: “We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to Him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives” (CCC#2283). Therefore, we offer Mass for the repose of the soul of a ѕυιcιdє victim, invoking God’s tender love and mercy, and His healing grace for the grieving loved ones. The Church also prays for the close relations of the deceased, that the loving and healing touch of God will comfort those torn apart by the impact of the ѕυιcιdє.
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/10/22/can_catholics_who_commit_ѕυιcιdє_be_given_a_church_burial/1109137
I dn't see a difference. The judgement is in the hands of God. There is the very real liklihood that thisperson is in Hell. However there is also the recogniton that many people who commit this sin are in some form or other of mental illness, which sometimes tends to mitigate the culpability of the preon who commits ѕυιcιdє. Since it is God alone who judges it is not up for us to decide. I think it is best to pray for the repose of this person's soul.
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Conspiracy,
Our prayers are with you and your family.
It is so sad and shocking. We will pray for the repose of the family members soul too.
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Basically, the Church has always refused Christian burial to unrepentant public sinners. ѕυιcιdє is the ultimate sin whereby the Church can have no knowledge of any public repentance. So in one sense there's a public presumption that the person was not saved ... but it's a presumption only; it's theoretically possible that the person was not in his right mind or that the person received the grace of perfect contrition in the last moment of life.
Novus Ordites consider this to be "cruel". But how many tens of thousands of souls may have been saved in being deterred from ѕυιcιdє due to the fear of hell? I've known people who said, "I would commit ѕυιcιdє except that my pain would not be elminated but only increased in hell."
When I was growing up in the Novus Ordo I served many funerals, including a number of ѕυιcιdєs. And the priest talked about how the person has left his pain behind and is now in a better place. No doubt trying to "console" the family. But if I heard this sermon and was suffering greatly, hey, why not leave it all behind and go to a better place by committing ѕυιcιdє, eh? So much for the false Novus Ordo charity. Yes, the family left behind suffers with the prospect that a loved one might have been damned. But that's the case no matter what public sin a person might die in. It happens all the time that people leave the Church and die outside. So those families too grieve at the prospect of a lost loved one (except of course that no one believes in EENS anymore).
In any case, the Novus Ordo has a misguided view of charity ... thinking it more important to emotionally console people than to save untold numbers of souls from the fires of hell by putting out there a strong public statement regarding ѕυιcιdє as a deterrent. That's most likely because 99% of all "Catholics" today follow Cardinal Cushing in believing that "If I die and you're not in heaven, that just means you haven't died yet."
Private prayer for such a one should not be discouraged however. Obviously God knows the future and He can take into account future prayers to perhaps grant the grace of a final act of perfect contrition to the person. So continue to pray for this poor soul.
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Basically, the Church has always refused Christian burial to unrepentant public sinners. ѕυιcιdє is the ultimate sin whereby the Church can have no knowledge of any public repentance. So in one sense there's a public presumption that the person was not saved ... but it's a presumption only; it's theoretically possible that the person was not in his right mind or that the person received the grace of perfect contrition in the last moment of life.
Novus Ordites consider this to be "cruel". But how many tens of thousands of souls may have been saved in being deterred from ѕυιcιdє due to the fear of hell? I've known people who said, "I would commit ѕυιcιdє except that my pain would not be elminated but only increased in hell."
When I was growing up in the Novus Ordo I served many funerals, including a number of ѕυιcιdєs. And the priest talked about how the person has left his pain behind and is now in a better place. No doubt trying to "console" the family. But if I heard this sermon and was suffering greatly, hey, why not leave it all behind and go to a better place by committing ѕυιcιdє, eh? So much for the false Novus Ordo charity. Yes, the family left behind suffers with the prospect that a loved one might have been damned. But that's the case no matter what public sin a person might die in. It happens all the time that people leave the Church and die outside. So those families too grieve at the prospect of a lost loved one (except of course that no one believes in EENS anymore).
In any case, the Novus Ordo has a misguided view of charity ... thinking it more important to emotionally console people than to save untold numbers of souls from the fires of hell by putting out there a strong public statement regarding ѕυιcιdє as a deterrent. That's most likely because 99% of all "Catholics" today follow Cardinal Cushing in believing that "If I die and you're not in heaven, that just means you haven't died yet."
Private prayer for such a one should not be discouraged however. Obviously God knows the future and He can take into account future prayers to perhaps grant the grace of a final act of perfect contrition to the person. So continue to pray for this poor soul.
I almost started to post yesterday in response to some of the earlier posts, but I thought, no, hopefully someone more articulate like Lad or BTNYC will write a better response than I could. And sure enough, Lad said very well in his first paragraph what I would have wanted to say (though no doubt expressing myself poorly). And not only that, but he made other excellent points - particularly those I've highlighted struck me. Thanks, Ladislaus!
In any case, prayers for your departed relative, CF. :pray:
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Basically, the Church has always refused Christian burial to unrepentant public sinners. ѕυιcιdє is the ultimate sin whereby the Church can have no knowledge of any public repentance. So in one sense there's a public presumption that the person was not saved ... but it's a presumption only; it's theoretically possible that the person was not in his right mind or that the person received the grace of perfect contrition in the last moment of life.
Novus Ordites consider this to be "cruel". But how many tens of thousands of souls may have been saved in being deterred from ѕυιcιdє due to the fear of hell? I've known people who said, "I would commit ѕυιcιdє except that my pain would not be elminated but only increased in hell."
When I was growing up in the Novus Ordo I served many funerals, including a number of ѕυιcιdєs. And the priest talked about how the person has left his pain behind and is now in a better place. No doubt trying to "console" the family. But if I heard this sermon and was suffering greatly, hey, why not leave it all behind and go to a better place by committing ѕυιcιdє, eh? So much for the false Novus Ordo charity. Yes, the family left behind suffers with the prospect that a loved one might have been damned. But that's the case no matter what public sin a person might die in. It happens all the time that people leave the Church and die outside. So those families too grieve at the prospect of a lost loved one (except of course that no one believes in EENS anymore).
In any case, the Novus Ordo has a misguided view of charity ... thinking it more important to emotionally console people than to save untold numbers of souls from the fires of hell by putting out there a strong public statement regarding ѕυιcιdє as a deterrent. That's most likely because 99% of all "Catholics" today follow Cardinal Cushing in believing that "If I die and you're not in heaven, that just means you haven't died yet."
Private prayer for such a one should not be discouraged however. Obviously God knows the future and He can take into account future prayers to perhaps grant the grace of a final act of perfect contrition to the person. So continue to pray for this poor soul.
I agree with you. I wasn't so much afraid of hell but I was scared to sin. Believing ѕυιcιdє was a sin was the only thing that kept me from committing ѕυιcιdє as a child. For part of that time I was below the age of reason and also unbaptized.
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thanks for the prayers to all, to be honest I haven't prayed for him since i believe he's in hell, my family is holding a novus order mass for him (since my uncle lived in Italy) but I'm not going, I feel bad for my cousins and aunt, I'll pray for them instead.
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There are times when someone is murdered to look like a ѕυιcιdє too.
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A couple of weeks ago, our God son's 26 year old step father who wasn't Catholic committed ѕυιcιdє because his wife wanted a divorce ( they were newly weds)There was a viewing no church service. I couldn't go.
A couple of years ago, a Catholic farmer's son committed ѕυιcιdє while he was in college. I think the family was upset with us because we didn't go viewing or funeral mass.
The strangest thing was we went to a diner for lunch and saw a group of college kids who came back from the funeral. They all had the same piercings like vampire fangs.
Then my friend from Ireland a couple years ago had her brother in law take his life. He had everything going for him. A nice farm, a big family, great marriage , show dogs. It was a shock.
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Obviously God knows the future and He can take into account future prayers to perhaps grant the grace of a final act of perfect contrition to the person. So continue to pray for this poor soul.
I have read about this, i.e. about prayers still being effective even after the person has already died, but i don't remember where. Where can it be found?
I think what i had read had to do with the prayers in the Mass for people that have died.
I don't mean being effective for souls who are in purgatory right now of course, but i mean for cases like this, a ѕυιcιdє, or when the person died in sin etc., uncertain sort of scenarios.
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Obviously God knows the future and He can take into account future prayers to perhaps grant the grace of a final act of perfect contrition to the person. So continue to pray for this poor soul.
I have read about this, i.e. about prayers still being effective even after the person has already died, but i don't remember where. Where can it be found?
If I recall, Padre Pio said something about this. It's just a simple theological fact that God is in eternity and is not bound by time and can therefore, if He wills, take into account future prayers. After all, Our Blessed Mother was redeemed by the future Passion of Her Son.
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My nephew committed ѕυιcιdє last week. He was age 37. My sister(mom) said he had always had low feelings and he was put on a drug (?) He came off the drug years ago. when he found out that his dog was dying of cancer, he went into a wooded area and shot the dog and himself. (he was baptized, but mom took the children away from the Faith and they continued in their mom's way, very sad!)
We have heard of drugs that can make you feel worse and to the point of ѕυιcιdє.
Also there is the young men (usually) who shoot kids, or those in the theater and then shoot themselves. Can they be programmed? Yes, they could. There is a book "Black Awakenings". (to be programmed, a victim is lured into drugs/liquor and then programmed).
Then there are those, like Judas, who commit a mortal sin, then go into despair and commit ѕυιcιdє. The devil works slow with lures and such then despair to win the soul.
I understand that there are different ways and we keep it in God's judgement. He is perfect and whatever he decides, it will be right.
Our prayers never go to waste, Our Lady will see to that.
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Sorry for your loss.
I've know more than my share of family and friends that have committed ѕυιcιdє and just about everyone of them was either on some medication or drugs or manic depressives or some other mentally challenged state of mind.
I think there are very few people who take their own lives consciously do so in a logical manner. I don't see any God damning anyone to hell for eternity for being mentally disabled.
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I just read that there are connections between the stomach and brain and depression is one of those possibilities. Lack of enzymes for digestion.
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We just convicted a guy who had mental problems of first degree murder in the CO theater massacre. Having mental problems doesn't necessarily relieve one of culpability in a crime. I agree it is possible to hope and pray for the salvation of those who have committed ѕυιcιdє (apart from those who we know by Divine revelation to be in hell). Nevertheless, the prudence of the Church's traditional stance on these matters is to be admired.
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That's right, Clemens. What's important is whether or not someone is so mentally gone as to have lost the use of reason in terms of distinguishing right and wrong. Being depressed per se does not necessarily equate to having lost the faculty of reason. I have heard, however, that the SSRI psychotropic drugs actually cause the mind to disconnect from reality and almost operate in a quasi-dream state. We leave everything up to the Mercy of God. If someone has been lost, God is never at fault. God gives everyone every possible opportunity to be saved.
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That's right, Clemens. What's important is whether or not someone is so mentally gone as to have lost the use of reason in terms of distinguishing right and wrong. Being depressed per se does not necessarily equate to having lost the faculty of reason. I have heard, however, that the SSRI psychotropic drugs actually cause the mind to disconnect from reality and almost operate in a quasi-dream state. We leave everything up to the Mercy of God. If someone has been lost, God is never at fault. God gives everyone every possible opportunity to be saved.
I'm blocked from giving you any more up thumbs, Ladislaus. <smile>
You underscore a critical point. In these diabolical days, there are many more contributing factors to ѕυιcιdє than other generations. Psychotropic drugs may be primary, but songbird referenced another factor - simple nutrition. The food supply is severely lacking in minerals and enzymes, critical for the brain. Add to that many toxic additives and soy products (which increases estrogen and contributes to the feminization of men) and there you have another significant factor.
The overall tone of the culture is just plain hopeless though (masonic groundwork). Dark, depressed, devoid of God, enmeshed in porn. There are so many layers to this. You are right - the bottom line is God's Mercy. We should not give up praying for these souls.
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There! I've done one for you, Per! But don't tell Matthew - I might get into trouble :cheers:
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thanks for the prayers to all, to be honest I haven't prayed for him since i believe he's in hell, my family is holding a novus order mass for him (since my uncle lived in Italy) but I'm not going, I feel bad for my cousins and aunt, I'll pray for them instead.
Don't forget, Conspiracy Factist, that (apart from the other extenuating circuмstance mentioned here by other posters) many murders are set up to look like ѕυιcιdєs. I hope you have changed your hard line about not praying for your uncle. No prayers are wasted, even if he did ѕυιcιdє and is in that place. I will pray for him too.
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My deepest apologies. I am very saddened for your family. I too lost my sister (not to ѕυιcιdє but to a heart attack) and she died before we or a priest could get to her. The nurse did say she asked for a priest though. I cannot explain what I felt when the doctors told us she had died without a priest. But then again my mom, wife and myself all finished the Rosary for her 10 minuted before she died while we were on the way to the hospital. I also said the most sincere prayer I have ever said to the Sacred Heart 20 minutes before she died.
Once again my sorrow for you. May God have mercy on his poor soul. Amen