Author Topic: Standing during Sanctus at SSPX Mass (Read 2127 times)

Raoul76 · « **on:** March 12, 2012, 12:28:04 AM »

Someone on Facebook informs me that at his / her SSPX chapel, the priest has begun insisting that people stand during the Sanctus right up to the consecration.

What is the precedent for this? I know that SSPX picks and chooses what they will accept from Vatican II, so who does it go back to? John XXIII? Paul VI? Or was this part of the Holy Week changes of Bugnini under Pius XII?

I readily admit I am clueless about the liturgy, I haven't really delved into it yet. I would be interested to hear from sedes like Hobbles if this could possibly be sacrilegious? When you hear the "Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus" and the bell rings, that is the time to kneel. Just to think about standing up at that moment really throws off my equilibrium.

Then again, I felt the same way at first about some of the Pius XII changes, and I suppose I still do. They're not "incentives to impiety" but they certainly aren't improvements on what was done before, either, as you'd expect considering their author. Standing during the Sanctus feels like it's in that category -- not sacrilegious but just off.

Alex · « **Reply #1 on:** March 12, 2012, 02:37:14 AM »

Although none of the SSPX chapels I've ever been to have done this, it would not be completely out of place if the Sanctus was sung by the laity.

This is what a priest wrote concerning this:

"This is all partly due to a misunderstanding of "tradition" or "custom". The custom of kneeling during the Sanctus and Agnus Dei come from the Low Mass, which originally was a private Mass in which people could piously attend. This is certainly a very good thing. However, that is not the original custom liturgically, but comes from a time when the Low Mass displaced the High Mass as the norm in many, though not all, places. The rule is that one stands during the times one sings, and the Sanctus and Agnus Dei are meant to be sung by the people alternating with the Choir. You should notice that the choir never kneels during either, and that is because they are singing. When the people quit singing their parts, then they stopped kneeling, logically enough. But that is not "traditional" in any real sense of that word. It is interesting that the Council of Nicea forbids all kneeling on Sunday- not to insist on that, but that it shows that the original customs were quite other. One should not confuse and abuse with a legitimate custom. For Low Masses it is great, since the people are not exercising any liturgical function."

And this is what someone else posted in response:

"It has nothing to do with a hybrid Mass ...! The rule is that, at Mass, you don't sing on your knees, and I was taught this nearly 30 years ago by the traditional priest who received me into the Church. I think that in the countries influenced by the Liturgical Movement - France, Germany, Switzerland - the laity follow this, and of course the seminarians are trained to do this at Econe. But in England and America people tend not to, being more influenced by Low Mass customs, so there's usually trouble when Continental priests try to introduce it. As happened with a French priest in the US a few years ago, I remember!"

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #2 on:** March 12, 2012, 11:56:22 AM »

Quote from: Alex

Although none of the SSPX chapels I've ever been to have done this, it would not be completely out of place if the Sanctus was sung by the laity.

This is what a priest wrote concerning this:

"This is all partly due to a misunderstanding of "tradition" or "custom". The custom of kneeling during the Sanctus and Agnus Dei come from the Low Mass, which originally was a private Mass in which people could piously attend. This is certainly a very good thing. However, that is not the original custom liturgically, but comes from a time when the Low Mass displaced the High Mass as the norm in many, though not all, places. The rule is that one stands during the times one sings, and the Sanctus and Agnus Dei are meant to be sung by the people alternating with the Choir. You should notice that the choir never kneels during either, and that is because they are singing. When the people quit singing their parts, then they stopped kneeling, logically enough. But that is not "traditional" in any real sense of that word. It is interesting that the Council of Nicea forbids all kneeling on Sunday- not to insist on that, but that it shows that the original customs were quite other. One should not confuse and abuse with a legitimate custom. For Low Masses it is great, since the people are not exercising any liturgical function."

And this is what someone else posted in response:

"It has nothing to do with a hybrid Mass ...! The rule is that, at Mass, you don't sing on your knees, and I was taught this nearly 30 years ago by the traditional priest who received me into the Church. I think that in the countries influenced by the Liturgical Movement - France, Germany, Switzerland - the laity follow this, and of course the seminarians are trained to do this at Econe. But in England and America people tend not to, being more influenced by Low Mass customs, so there's usually trouble when Continental priests try to introduce it. As happened with a French priest in the US a few years ago, I remember!"

My SSPX chapel just started doing this.

I admit I was wrongly scandalized the first couple times I saw it.

But Alex lays out that it is actually quite proper, and is often leftvunrectified at many chapels precisely because the reflexive suspicion will be modernism.

wallflower · « **Reply #3 on:** March 12, 2012, 01:40:24 PM »

Quote from: Alex

Although none of the SSPX chapels I've ever been to have done this, it would not be completely out of place if the Sanctus was sung by the laity.

This is what a priest wrote concerning this:

"This is all partly due to a misunderstanding of "tradition" or "custom". The custom of kneeling during the Sanctus and Agnus Dei come from the Low Mass, which originally was a private Mass in which people could piously attend. This is certainly a very good thing. However, that is not the original custom liturgically, but comes from a time when the Low Mass displaced the High Mass as the norm in many, though not all, places. The rule is that one stands during the times one sings, and the Sanctus and Agnus Dei are meant to be sung by the people alternating with the Choir. You should notice that the choir never kneels during either, and that is because they are singing. When the people quit singing their parts, then they stopped kneeling, logically enough. But that is not "traditional" in any real sense of that word. It is interesting that the Council of Nicea forbids all kneeling on Sunday- not to insist on that, but that it shows that the original customs were quite other. One should not confuse and abuse with a legitimate custom. For Low Masses it is great, since the people are not exercising any liturgical function."

And this is what someone else posted in response:

"It has nothing to do with a hybrid Mass ...! The rule is that, at Mass, you don't sing on your knees, and I was taught this nearly 30 years ago by the traditional priest who received me into the Church. I think that in the countries influenced by the Liturgical Movement - France, Germany, Switzerland - the laity follow this, and of course the seminarians are trained to do this at Econe. But in England and America people tend not to, being more influenced by Low Mass customs, so there's usually trouble when Continental priests try to introduce it. As happened with a French priest in the US a few years ago, I remember!"

This has been my experience exactly. Kneeling during Low Mass, standing during High Mass while the sanctus is sung and many American parishes get all confused.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #4 on:** March 12, 2012, 01:56:07 PM »

since when is it hard to sing kneeling? The Sanctus chants are my favorite.

PereJoseph · « **Reply #5 on:** March 12, 2012, 03:19:15 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Someone on Facebook informs me that at his / her SSPX chapel, the priest has begun insisting that people stand during the Sanctus right up to the consecration.

What is the precedent for this? I know that SSPX picks and chooses what they will accept from Vatican II, so who does it go back to? John XXIII? Paul VI? Or was this part of the Holy Week changes of Bugnini under Pius XII?

I readily admit I am clueless about the liturgy, I haven't really delved into it yet. I would be interested to hear from sedes like Hobbles if this could possibly be sacrilegious? When you hear the "Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus" and the bell rings, that is the time to kneel. Just to think about standing up at that moment really throws off my equilibrium.

Then again, I felt the same way at first about some of the Pius XII changes, and I suppose I still do. They're not "incentives to impiety" but they certainly aren't improvements on what was done before, either, as you'd expect considering their author. Standing during the Sanctus feels like it's in that category -- not sacrilegious but just off.

Traditionally, there were no pews, which were introduced in the XIXth century at least in basilicas and cathedrals. I don't know about country parishes and so forth, but the ancient custom was to stand for all of the singing and to kneel on the floor or, I imagine, on mats. But there was no sitting, just standing and kneeling, even in the West as in the East. Of course, in the Middle Ages and before, too, the whole laity participated in the responding chants now performed chiefly by the choir or the acolytes in most places. It was considered important for everybody to pray the Mass. Saint Pius X attempted to restore these ancient customs, as well as the separation of men and women to one side or the other of the church, and all men's choirs who led the chants.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 12, 2012, 08:11:45 PM »

I am seasoned enough at this point to know that just because something feels wrong to me, doesn't mean that it is.

I wasn't convinced by Pere saying that this custom was practiced in the Middle Ages -- communion in the hand was done long before that, yet it's scandalous today, as everyone would agree.

But his mention of Pius X led me to find this: "Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times. (Tra le sollecitudini, Pius X, 1903)"

You can't get a much more solid source than that. Thanks for the answers, I'm sure my friend will be very relieved.

Francisco · « **Reply #7 on:** March 13, 2012, 12:30:57 AM »

Traditio has posted on this topic today. It also gives a link for further reading:

http://www.traditio.com/office/masscong.txt