Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: TheRealMcCoy on January 03, 2016, 04:31:57 AM
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The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand. There's also instructions for bowing.
Thoughts?
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I was taught to bow at the mention of Jesus' name.
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The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand. There's also instructions for bowing.
Thoughts?
Synchronization with new church. New church stands during all of those points and they all have group participation which is better when standing. Also, the glad-handing occurs between the Pater Noster and the Agnus Dei--you certainly can't be kneeling and running up and down the aisle fellowshipping at the same time.
I perceive what you describe as a gradual adjustment in preparation for new church and its inherent man-worship.
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I was taught to bow at the mention of Jesus' name.
Pre-Vaticam II or post? In the context of the true Mass or the bastardized version?
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I was taught to bow at the mention of Jesus' name.
Yes I bow my head anytime with the mention of the Holy Name, in or out of Mass.
They want us to bow to the priest during Mass. Sorry for the confusion.
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The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand.
That's normal for High Masses, isn't it?
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The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand. There's also instructions for bowing.
Thoughts?
We've always stood for these parts at High Mass. Not at Low Mass, however.
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The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand. There's also instructions for bowing.
Thoughts?
Synchronization with new church. New church stands during all of those points and they all have group participation which is better when standing. Also, the glad-handing occurs between the Pater Noster and the Agnus Dei--you certainly can't be kneeling and running up and down the aisle fellowshipping at the same time.
I perceive what you describe as a gradual adjustment in preparation for new church and its inherent man-worship.
No... If I remember correctly, that's quite normal for High Mass. That's how it's been for a while.
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We've not been doing it. I wondered if it was a new change.
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The Father Lasance New Roman Missal 1957 edition, has a wonderful chart on page 72 indicating the postures at ALL Masses. (If anyone has a copy and could post it, it would be worth while copying and printing for reference. Sorry I don't know how)
At EVERY Mass, Low, High, Requiem, Solemn, and Solemn Requiem, we are to KNEEL from the Sanctus till Communion.
The SSPX has been trying to get us to stand for years, putting out new postures for Mass that are similar to the Novus Ordo.
Kneeling in reverence at this time makes sense.
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At the St Louis chapel, we kneel during the Agnes Dei during High Mass.
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The Father Lasance New Roman Missal 1957 edition, has a wonderful chart on page 72 indicating the postures at ALL Masses. (If anyone has a copy and could post it, it would be worth while copying and printing for reference. Sorry I don't know how)
At EVERY Mass, Low, High, Requiem, Solemn, and Solemn Requiem, we are to KNEEL from the Sanctus till Communion.
The SSPX has been trying to get us to stand for years, putting out new postures for Mass that are similar to the Novus Ordo.
Kneeling in reverence at this time makes sense.
Maybe the 1962 Missal - of some parts the SSPX uses, changed that, I don't know.
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As far as I am aware, the posture of the laity during Mass has never been been determined by the rubrics. Rather, it was always a matter of custom.
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I was raised before Vatican II and taught by Sisters. We always knelt from the Sanctus to Communion. I remember it vividly because as a child it seemed like such a long time to kneel and the Sisters would not let us lean back and rest against the seat of the pew behind us--we had to kneel perfectly straight and not move about because this was the holiest part of the Mass and deserved our full attention while in a position of humility before God.
We bowed our head when we genuflected before entering a pew and again when genuflecting after leaving the pew after Mass. Again, the bowing of the head was a sign of humility offered to God in the tabernacle. We also made the Sign of the Cross while genuflecting. We bowed our head at the Agnus Dei, the Confiteor, and at the Communion rail while awaiting our turn to receive the Host. This time was spent in prayer as we tried our best to prepare our souls to receive God Almighty. Upon returning to the pew after Communion, we knelt and bowed our head in prayer. Everyone in church did this.
I have continued to do this all my life whether anyone else does it or not and whether they like it or not. Nothing else seems proper to me when I am before God; and to me, that is what matters most. I have felt conspicuous at times but I just try to keep my attention fixed on God and not on those around me. I don't say this out of pride but rather to encourage those of you who feel so inclined to do as I do. I've had priests stare at me, but not one of them has ever forbidden me to do this. I just stare right back at them because I know what is right.
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As far as I am aware, the posture of the laity during Mass has never been been determined by the rubrics. Rather, it was always a matter of custom.
This is correct. There are no official rubrics for the laity. Remember that pews are, in relative terms, an innovation of the 1300s. The faithful did not have pews to sit in or kneelers to kneel upon for 600 years longer than they have had them.
Customs differ in this respect in different locations around the world. Every English-language hand missal I've ever seen that specifies the customary posture of the faithful at Mass, and many of them are silent on the matter, says that the faithful kneel at the beginning of the Sanctus in both the high and the low Mass.
Formal rubrics for the faithful is an innovation of the Novus Ordo and, in fact, is specifically identified. In the Novus Ordo, the rubrics indicate that the faithful stand until the beginning of the "institution narrative". Many English-speaking countries, however, have a indult from the Vatican to kneel after the Sanctus until the Amen.
According to the SSPX priest who required the faithful to stand during the Sanctus at the chapel I used to attend said that this was a requirement of the SSPX because this is the French custom.
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Let's worry about bigger issues. I personally like these rubrics. I also agree that the faithful should sit for the Epistle even for Low Masses.
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The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand. There's also instructions for bowing.
Thoughts?
Let's worry about bigger issues. I personally like these rubrics. I also agree that the faithful should sit for the Epistle even for Low Masses.
Ladislaus response reminds me of the Novus Ordo mass attendees and the final trigger that causes them to leave and go to tradition. Ladislaus says he personally likes the rubric changes (though he does not identify the changes). Ladislaus wake up call level has not been reached yet. Others are more sensitive to the change and are protesting by leaving or fighting it.
If we are real traditionalists we should be consistent in our following what was always done, rather than accepting a change because "we personally like it". The issue should not be whether it is harmful, or whether we like it or not, the issue is whether we are changing a custom in our country. The issue is that the biggest contributor to the destruction which occurred in the post Vatican II church is the individual priests deciding on their own what is best to "improve" the way we worship. It appears to be a failing in the DNA of priests that makes them feel like they are alone in the altar and need the to constantly hear the faithful participating and moving about.
Dear TheRealMcCoy,
What is this card they gave you. Does it have an imprimatur or it it just the whim of the local priest. I have not heard of any SSPX Menzingen universal written instruction for mass postures. It is the individual priest that is doing it.
No priest has a right to change the customs of a country into the customs of other countries or what is more likely, his own concocted mass postures.
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If we are real traditionalists we should be consistent in our following what was always done, rather than accepting a change because "we personally like it".
Others have already pointed out that the rubrics for the faithful are a matter of custom and not prescribed by the Church.
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If we are real traditionalists we should be consistent in our following what was always done, rather than accepting a change because "we personally like it".
Others have already pointed out that the rubrics for the faithful are a matter of custom and not prescribed by the Church.
My posting was long and you only quoted this small part. I don't understand your response, what are you trying to say? We all know that the mass postures are a matter of custom. It is clear in what I wrote that we do not tamper with the customs. All traditions are customs, but not all traditions are prescribed by the Church. We know the mass postures are customs and not prescribed by the Church.
Are you saying that because a custom is not prescribed by the Church that it can be changed at the whim of the priest? Are you saying that because something is not prescribed it does not matter to you if it is changed?
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Ironically, I was just looking at the 1937 Father Lasance Missal someone else posted here, and it indicates remaining kneeling from the Sanctus until Communion even at High Mass ... which nobody ever does anymore. Customs change. If I recall from the SSPX seminary days, some of the rubrics described here have been common in Europe for the longest time, so this may be little more than the SSPX trying to get everyone across the world on the same page (using Europe as the standard). In any case, since these changes are custom and can change over time and place, it's not really that big of a deal. If we see true signs of modernism in the SSPX, then go for it. LONG before these latest reconciliation efforts, the SSPX tried to promote the Dialogue Mass, but that flopped and isn't done much anymore.
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Are you saying that because a custom is not prescribed by the Church that it can be changed at the whim of the priest? Are you saying that because something is not prescribed it does not matter to you if it is changed?
No, not on a whim. But, if for instance the SSPX were to start using European customs over here in the US, then that's hardly based on a whim.
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Ironically, I was just looking at the 1937 Father Lasance Missal someone else posted here, and it indicates remaining kneeling from the Sanctus until Communion even at High Mass ... which nobody ever does anymore. Customs change. If I recall from the SSPX seminary days, some of the rubrics described here have been common in Europe for the longest time, so this may be little more than the SSPX trying to get everyone across the world on the same page (using Europe as the standard). In any case, since these changes are custom and can change over time and place, it's not really that big of a deal.
Once again you prove my point:
"Ladislaus response reminds me of the Novus Ordo mass attendees and the final trigger that causes them to leave and go to tradition. Ladislaus says he personally likes the rubric changes (though he does not identify the changes). Ladislaus wake up call level has not been reached yet. Others are more sensitive to the change and are protesting by leaving or fighting it.
If we are real traditionalists we should be consistent in our following what was always done, rather than accepting a change because "we personally like it". The issue should not be whether it is harmful, or whether we like it or not, the issue is whether we are changing a custom in our country. The issue is that the biggest contributor to the destruction which occurred in the post Vatican II church is the individual priests deciding on their own what is best to "improve" the way we worship. It appears to be a failing in the DNA of priests that makes them feel like they are alone in the altar and need the to constantly hear the faithful participating and moving about".
A simple "harmless" pill has side effects which can be deadly. The principle that a priest at his whim can change the customs of a country is what created the Vatican II church at the local church level, the only place where the laity deal with the Church.
By the way, it is in the schools and the universities that all change/revolution is started. In the case of the SSPX in the USA, just like the Church in the 1950's and on, it is the grade school children at say, St. Mary's Kansas, and the seminarians at Winona that are taught the changes. It is then brought to the parishes by the young priests and the students teach the parents that they were wrong.
I'd suggest you read up on the subject, as there is no "European" custom, there are different customs in Spain, France, Germany, Italy...... the USA
By the way, France was the crucible of the liturgical revolution, in the 1930's and even earlier they already were changing everything. I doubt any Frenchmen exist who know what there traditions were prior. Moreover, France is hardly a country to emulate since 98% of French Catholics do not go to mass.
A "European mass postures customs expert" may just be an oxymoron.
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By the way, it is in the schools and the universities that all change/revolution is started. In the case of the SSPX in the USA, just like the Church in the 1950's and on, it is the grade school children at say, St. Mary's Kansas, and the seminarians at Winona that are taught the changes. It is then brought to the parishes by the young priests and the students teach the parents that they were wrong.
It is a work of darkness to bring change via the K-12 schools and the universities (seminaries). If a change is good, it should be brought out to the light and explained to everyone.
How would it be done if it was in the light?:
If it is being orchestrated by the SSPX, there should be an instruction from Bishop Fellay of what these changes are and why they are being made. The why would show where it is the correct or better tradition. You will never see this instruction, as every Catholic country would have to change their own customs.
I repeat, it is at the whim of the individual priests that changes are being made. There is no standard.
I'd be curious to see what would happen if an old American SSPX went to France and changed their current "customs", like ordering the women to wear veils and no jeans and pants at mass. You'd have a revolution.
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The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand. There's also instructions for bowing.
Thoughts?
I am told that at St. Mary's Kansas the largest SSPX school in the world, the students were taught (and now the whole congregation does the same) that you stand up during the Preface and the Sanctus at LOW MASS.
You will likely find the same being taught at the other big SSPX schools and the seminary. It only takes a few priest to bring change upon the entire USA SSPX.
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:facepalm:
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At my chapel we have a low Mass and we kneel for those parts of the Mass. In fact we kneel for the majority of the Mass, much more than we sit or stand.
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As several people have said here, the Church has never said what the faithful should do during Mass. Some suggestions appeared in pre-VII missals, but these were copied from what clerics assisting in the sanctuary (but not taking part in the Mass) had to do, just so priests were not seen to be obviously doing different things. But to apply this to the laity was just a bright idea of missal editors and probably some individual priests.
Personally, I kneel right through a Low Mass and just stand for the Gospels and the Creed. There's a practical reason - the noise made by people standing up, sometimes with scraping of chairs, etc., often drowns out the first part of the Epistle, especially if it's a short one. And as I feel it's fitting to kneel for the Preface (the 'Little Canon'), which is not part of the Offertory, it's simpler to kneel for the Offertory as well. I find a lot of getting up and down is just distracting. But I don't mind what anyone else does!
I remember reading a comment by an Italian lady visiting England, quoted in a book by Sir Arnold Lunn in the '50s. She said she found it difficult to get used to the English 'synchronised Masses' where everyone did the same thing - in Italy everyone did as they pleased. So uniformity was already creeping in, perhaps under the influence of the Liturgical Movement.
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She said she found it difficult to get used to the English 'synchronised Masses' where everyone did the same thing - in Italy everyone did as they pleased.
Thanks for that enlightening post. I never heard that before. Sounds Italian, very free.
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She said she found it difficult to get used to the English 'synchronised Masses' where everyone did the same thing - in Italy everyone did as they pleased.
Thanks for that enlightening post. I never heard that before. Sounds Italian, very free.
I don't think Italy, as a whole, has ever been renowned for its liturgical correctness. If someone told me that in Italy they used to begin the mass by having a castrato burst into the nave bellowing an aria from Carmen while riding a snow white stallion, I wouldn't be surprised.
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The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand. There's also instructions for bowing.
Thoughts?
Where I come from the people kneel from the Sanctus until the Pater Noster when they stand. Everyone kneels again at the Agnus Dei until the last "Dominus Vobiscuм". The positions are the same for servers and faithful. It has been this way for years. It's the custom of the south. Every Mexican priest I have served Mass for does it this way.
As another poster said, it is really a matter of local custom.
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I don't think Italy, as a whole, has ever been renowned for its liturgical correctness.
Perhaps, but there is no liturgically "correct" or "incorrect" posture for the laity at Mass as it is entirely a matter of custom.
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I don't think Italy, as a whole, has ever been renowned for its liturgical correctness.
Perhaps, but there is no liturgically "correct" or "incorrect" posture for the laity at Mass as it is entirely a matter of custom.
Instead let's say orderliness and good form. We all despise irreverence and chaos at the mass, but if it's Italians 75 years ago, suddenly it's charming and there's no such thing as correct or incorrect.
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As far as I am aware, the posture of the laity during Mass has never been been determined by the rubrics. Rather, it was always a matter of custom.
This is correct. There are no official rubrics for the laity.
There are rubrics for the postures of the laity at low Mass, as described below. The “Lasance” Missal contains a card which describes the postures on page 72 (on my edition) entitled “When to kneel, stand, and sit at Low, High, Requiem or Solemn Mass according to the custom in America. This is usually as far as people go when quoting Lasance, however there are more details on the footnotes of the card, and additionally much more "international" details on pages 69 and 70. Notice that in all instances, American custom and "international", the laity kneel for the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei in all Masses. The new USA SSPX postures are to stand during the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei.
The New Roman Missal by Rev. F.X. Lasance Imprimatur 1937 & 1945 (reprint by Christian Book Club of America 1993):
Page 69 – Low Mass
When the celebrant enters the sanctuary the laity rise and remain standing till he descends to the foot of the altar to begin Mass. They then kneel and remain so throughout the mass, except during the two gospels, during which they stand. (Rubricae Generales Massalis, Tit. 17, n. 2.) De Herdt (Vol. I, n. 146) says this rubric is not perceptive but directive only.
Note – When the last Gospel is that of St. John they make a simple genuflection with the priest at the words “Et Verbum,” etc., then rise and reamin standing until the priest reaches the foot of the altar.
Page 69 – 70 High Mass
The rubrics give no direction. Gavantus (Pars I, Tit. 17) and Pouget ( Institutiones Catholicae in modum Catecheseos, Pars 3, Sect. 2, cap7, & 20) say that the people may conform to the rules given for those who are in the choir. Hence the people:
1) Stand – from the time the celebrant enters the sanctuary to the beginning of the Mass
2) Kneel – from the beginning of the mass until the celebrant ascends the altar after the Confiteor.
3) Stand – from the time the celebrant ascends the altar until he goes to the bench after the intonation of the Glora. During the singing of the Kyrie eleison the people sit if the celebrant sits.
4) Sit – while the choir sings the Gloria
5) Stand – from the time the celebrant rises from the bench to the end of the Orations.
6) Sit – from the beginning of the Epistle to the Dominus vobiscuм before the gospel.
7) Stand – during the Gospel and the recitation of the Credo; during the latter they make a genuflection on one knee at Et incarnates est
8) Sit – while the celebrant takes his seat, and whilst the Credo is being sung by the choir, except at the Et incarnatus est… et homo factus est, when they kneel on both knees.
9) Stand – when the celebrant rises to return to the altar and remain standing whiklst he sings Diminus vobiscuм and Oremus.
10) Sit – from the Oremus to the beginning of the Preface – Per omnia saecula saeculorum.
Note: During solemn Mass when incense is used the people stand during the incensing of the congregation. Remain standing for the Preface.
11) Stand – from the beginning of the Preface until the celebrant begins the Sanctus.
12) Kneel – from the Hosanna, etc., until the Per omnia saecula saeculorum before the Pater Noster.
13) Stand – from the Pater Noster until the Agnus Dei.
14) Kneel – from the Agnus Dei until the Dominus Vobiscuм before the Postcommunion.
15) Stand – from the Postcommunion and remain standing until the celebrant gives the Blessing.
16) Kneel – during the Blessing
17) Stand – during the Last Gospel and remain standing until the celebrant has left the sanctuary.
Note: When the Last Gospel is that of St. John, the people should make a simple genuflection with the priest at the word ‘Et Verbum,” etc., then rise and remain standing until the celebrant has left the sanctuary.
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As far as I am aware, the posture of the laity during Mass has never been been determined by the rubrics. Rather, it was always a matter of custom.
This is correct. There are no official rubrics for the laity.
There are rubrics for the postures of the laity at low Mass, as described below. The “Lasance” Missal contains a card which describes the postures on page 72 (on my edition) entitled “When to kneel, stand, and sit at Low, High, Requiem or Solemn Mass according to the custom in America. This is usually as far as people go when quoting Lasance, however there are more details on the footnotes of the card, and additionally much more "international" details on pages 69 and 70. Notice that in all instances, American custom and "international", the laity kneel for the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei in all Masses. The new USA SSPX postures are to stand during the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei.
The New Roman Missal by Rev. F.X. Lasance Imprimatur 1937 & 1945 (reprint by Christian Book Club of America 1993):
Page 69 – Low Mass
When the celebrant enters the sanctuary the laity rise and remain standing till he descends to the foot of the altar to begin Mass. They then kneel and remain so throughout the mass, except during the two gospels, during which they stand. (Rubricae Generales Massalis, Tit. 17, n. 2.) De Herdt (Vol. I, n. 146) says this rubric is not perceptive but directive only.
Note – When the last Gospel is that of St. John they make a simple genuflection with the priest at the words “Et Verbum,” etc., then rise and reamin standing until the priest reaches the foot of the altar.
Page 69 – 70 High Mass
The rubrics give no direction. Gavantus (Pars I, Tit. 17) and Pouget ( Institutiones Catholicae in modum Catecheseos, Pars 3, Sect. 2, cap7, & 20) say that the people may conform to the rules given for those who are in the choir. Hence the people:
1) Stand – from the time the celebrant enters the sanctuary to the beginning of the Mass
2) Kneel – from the beginning of the mass until the celebrant ascends the altar after the Confiteor.
3) Stand – from the time the celebrant ascends the altar until he goes to the bench after the intonation of the Glora. During the singing of the Kyrie eleison the people sit if the celebrant sits.
4) Sit – while the choir sings the Gloria
5) Stand – from the time the celebrant rises from the bench to the end of the Orations.
6) Sit – from the beginning of the Epistle to the Dominus vobiscuм before the gospel.
7) Stand – during the Gospel and the recitation of the Credo; during the latter they make a genuflection on one knee at Et incarnates est
8) Sit – while the celebrant takes his seat, and whilst the Credo is being sung by the choir, except at the Et incarnatus est… et homo factus est, when they kneel on both knees.
9) Stand – when the celebrant rises to return to the altar and remain standing whiklst he sings Diminus vobiscuм and Oremus.
10) Sit – from the Oremus to the beginning of the Preface – Per omnia saecula saeculorum.
Note: During solemn Mass when incense is used the people stand during the incensing of the congregation. Remain standing for the Preface.
11) Stand – from the beginning of the Preface until the celebrant begins the Sanctus.
12) Kneel – from the Hosanna, etc., until the Per omnia saecula saeculorum before the Pater Noster.
13) Stand – from the Pater Noster until the Agnus Dei.
14) Kneel – from the Agnus Dei until the Dominus Vobiscuм before the Postcommunion.
15) Stand – from the Postcommunion and remain standing until the celebrant gives the Blessing.
16) Kneel – during the Blessing
17) Stand – during the Last Gospel and remain standing until the celebrant has left the sanctuary.
Note: When the Last Gospel is that of St. John, the people should make a simple genuflection with the priest at the word ‘Et Verbum,” etc., then rise and remain standing until the celebrant has left the sanctuary.
First, a couple of points. As Ladislaus wrote, it really isn't a big deal. There are "rubrics" for the laity but they are not "R"ubrics, in the sense that postures for Mass are directive and not preceptive (not binding). Thus, you see many different postures that may result from custom.
The directives for postures at Mass depend upon the Missal in use (in this case the 1962) and has nothing specifically to do with the SSPX except they happen to use the '62 Missal.
The 1960-61 "rubrics" for the laity (to be used in conjunction with the 1962 Missal) direct the faithful to stand when the priest returns the thurible to the Deacon (MC) after incensing the altar and to remain standing until the conclusion of the singing of the Sanctus.
The 1960-61 rubrics then direct the faithful to stand again at the Pater Noster (per omnia...)and remain standing until the conclusion of the singing of the Agnus Dei.
I have only ever been a Traditional Catholic using the 1962 Missal and this is what I was always taught and always practiced. When I visit other chapels that do it differently, well, When in Rome...
A very good book that I have read is The Celebration of the Mass: A Study of the Rubrics of the Roman Missal (O'Connell).
But, again, it's not that big of a deal.
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The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand.
That's normal for High Masses, isn't it?
Not at FSSP or ICRSS. This is something different I've noticed at SSPX chapels. A few elderly faithful kneel right away.
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The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand.
That's normal for High Masses, isn't it?
Not at FSSP or ICRSS. This is something different I've noticed at SSPX chapels. A few elderly faithful kneel right away.
I believe the FSSP and ICRSS use the Ecclesia Dei Commission's "Red Booklet" for instructions on assisting at Mass.
After my last post I found this On the various teachings for posture at the Latin Mass (http://canonsregular.com/files/latin-class/Understanding+when+to+kneel+sit+and+stand+v+24.pdf) wherein (on page 17) it has a handy table showing the variety of instructions. Of the sources listed, only the ED Red Booklet directs kneeling during the singing of the Agnus Dei and Sanctus.
Throw in local customs and you now see why it's not surprising to see differences from chapel to chapel, even if the pastors are of the same order.
IMHO, it's good for the customs to be made uniform for every chapel serviced by a particular order (whatever those customs are), for a couple of reasons; the Faithful have uniformity from one chapel to the next, and that boys (who may have a vocation) will learn the appropriate movements from the earliest age and there will be a seamless transition from assisting, to serving at the altar, to instruction at the seminary.
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The directives for postures at Mass depend upon the Missal in use (in this case the 1962) and has nothing specifically to do with the SSPX except they happen to use the '62 Missal.
The 1960-61 "rubrics" for the laity (to be used in conjunction with the 1962 Missal) direct the faithful to stand when the priest returns the thurible to the Deacon (MC) after incensing the altar and to remain standing until the conclusion of the singing of the Sanctus.
The 1960-61 rubrics then direct the faithful to stand again at the Pater Noster (per omnia...)and remain standing until the conclusion of the singing of the Agnus Dei.
I have only ever been a Traditional Catholic using the 1962 Missal and this is what I was always taught and always practiced. When I visit other chapels that do it differently, well, When in Rome...
Rubrics? I typed word for word what the Fr. Lasance Missal says concerning the postures in the 1930's and 1940's, it is very detailed, and covers Low Mass, which has Rubrics, and Solemn High mass which does not have rubrics. What you posted above about 1962 does not speak of Low or High or Solemn mass and you speak of "rubrics". Please be precise in what you write, post what was the practice in 1962 in like detail from a credible source.
The FSSP, ICK, (and the majority of the SSPX priests in the USA), apparently do not use the postures you "say" are the rubrics for the 1962 missal for they all use the American custom postures described in the Lasance. This throws a wrench in your theory above. The practice of standing at the Sanctus and Agnus Dei at high mass began with the school children at St. Mary's Kansas, as far as I have found out, and has spread to a few chapels influenced by the children or young priests. It is not the practice in the majority of the SSPX chapels.
Now, the practice in St. Mary's Kansas of Standing at the Preface and the Sanctus at Low Mass is a novelty that for certain started also at St. Mary's, Kansas and the practice is unheard of in any USA trad chapel of any kind, whether FSSP, ICK, Indult, Independent, Sede or whatever. In fact I had never heard or read of this practice anywhere in the USA prior to hearing of it from students at St. Mary's.
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Rubrics? I typed word for word what the Fr. Lasance Missal says concerning the postures in the 1930's and 1940's, it is very detailed, and covers Low Mass, which has Rubrics, and Solemn High mass which does not have rubrics. What you posted above about 1962 does not speak of Low or High or Solemn mass and you speak of "rubrics". Please be precise in what you write, post what was the practice in 1962 in like detail from a credible source.
Did you actually click the link I provided and somehow miss (even though I specified the page number) where it "speak(s) of Low...blah, blah, blah"? Oh, and where I mentioned Canon O'Connell's masterpiece on the Mass. You do know that the postures directed in the Lasance...oh, never mind.
The FSSP, ICK, (and the majority of the SSPX priests in the USA), apparently do not use the postures you "say" are the rubrics for the 1962 missal for they all use the American custom postures described in the Lasance. This throws a wrench in your theory above. The practice of standing at the Sanctus and Agnus Dei at high mass began with the school children at St. Mary's Kansas, as far as I have found out, and has spread to a few chapels influenced by the children or young priests. It is not the practice in the majority of the SSPX chapels.
What I say? My theory? What the hell is wrong with you?
Now, the practice in St. Mary's Kansas of Standing at the Preface and the Sanctus at Low Mass is a novelty that for certain started also at St. Mary's, Kansas and the practice is unheard of in any USA trad chapel of any kind, whether FSSP, ICK, Indult, Independent, Sede or whatever. In fact I had never heard or read of this practice anywhere in the USA prior to hearing of it from students at St. Mary's.
M'kay. Clearly you are here to grind an axe. Don't let me stop you with the facts.
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See my comments in blue:
Rubrics? I typed word for word what the Fr. Lasance Missal says concerning the postures in the 1930's and 1940's, it is very detailed, and covers Low Mass, which has Rubrics, and Solemn High mass which does not have rubrics. What you posted above about 1962 does not speak of Low or High or Solemn mass and you speak of "rubrics". Please be precise in what you write, post what was the practice in 1962 in like detail from a credible source.
Did you actually click the link I provided and somehow miss (even though I specified the page number) where it "speak(s) of Low...blah, blah, blah"? Oh, and where I mentioned Canon O'Connell's masterpiece on the Mass. You do know that the postures directed in the Lasance...oh, never mind.(Sorry about that, I quoted from your previous post, I missed the next posting that followed)
Now, the practice in St. Mary's Kansas of Standing at the Preface and the Sanctus at Low Mass is a novelty that for certain started also at St. Mary's, Kansas and the practice is unheard of in any USA trad chapel of any kind, whether FSSP, ICK, Indult, Independent, Sede or whatever. In fact I had never heard or read of this practice anywhere in the USA prior to hearing of it from students at St. Mary's.
M'kay. Clearly you are here to grind an axe. Don't let me stop you with the facts.(If questioning a practice that was not done at any church in the USA prior to Vatican II, and not done by any trad priest after Vat II changes to this day, except at St. Mary's Kansas since quite recently is "grinding an axe" to you, then anything goes, you we might as well join the persoanlly concocted "new and improved mass postures" that that nobody layman Mr. Friend that you referenced . He is a typical example of what the priest have done to destroy the church since Vatican II, in the name of "they didn't know what they were doing before".
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(If questioning a practice that was not done at any church in the USA prior to Vatican II, and not done by any trad priest after Vat II changes to this day, except at St. Mary's Kansas since quite recently is "grinding an axe" to you, then anything goes, you we might as well join the persoanlly concocted "new and improved mass postures" that that nobody layman Mr. Friend that you referenced . He is a typical example of what the priest have done to destroy the church since Vatican II, in the name of "they didn't know what they were doing before".
:facepalm:
Well, I am not from St. Mary's and I have never been anything but Traditional Catholic, and this is what I've always been taught. Soooooo, there's that. Free debate advice: Over broad statements don't help your agenda.
Not that this will make a difference, but since it appears you are short on time and you have decided that whatever time you do have is better spent writing rather than reading....
Friend's work cites Canon O'Connell (first published in 1941). O'Connell made rubrics his life's work following the death of Fortescue (whom Friend also cites) whose work was first published in 1918. He cites Sheen, and McManus prior to Vatican II and also Lasance from 1945.
What Friend has done is nothing more than to create a simple table to compare what some of the most respected pre-Vatican II rubricians directed for posture at Mass.
In spite of the easy-to-read table--and not do be denied an opportunity to make fools of themselves--Knowitalls (who in reality display a .22 caliber mind) often still can't accept they just might have something to learn.
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I'm not SSPX (we are independent/sedevacantist).... but have been attending high masses most of my life.
We stand during the preface... and when the bells ring for the Sanctus, we kneel.
We stand for the Pater Nostra (continuing to stand while the Priest breaks the host), and then we kneel as he begins to say the Agnus Dei.
For low masses - we kneel throughout. No standing until Communion.
Oh btw... tiny pet peeve as far as rubrics go and a lot of traditional Catholics are a little lax or forgetful... please remain in your pew until after Communion. Avoid potty breaks or whatever people do rushing out between the Consecration and Communion. But if you must pop up like a toast (which is disrespectful to Our Lord who has come on the altar), lower yourself on both knees when you genuflect. And teach your children to do the same. Remember the casual treatment of Our Lord on the altar is witnessed by your children - which is harmful when you want to teach them to be devout and truly understand the Real Presence. Please.
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Now, the practice in St. Mary's Kansas of Standing at the Preface and the Sanctus at Low Mass is a novelty that for certain started also at St. Mary's, Kansas and the practice is unheard of in any USA trad chapel of any kind, whether FSSP, ICK, Indult, Independent, Sede or whatever. In fact I had never heard or read of this practice anywhere in the USA prior to hearing of it from students at St. Mary's.
M'kay. Clearly you are here to grind an axe. Don't let me stop you with the facts.
If questioning a LOW MASS practice that was not done at any church in the USA prior to Vatican II, and not done by any trad priest after Vat II changes to this day, except at St. Mary's Kansas since quite recently is "grinding an axe" to you, then anything goes, you we might as well join the personally concocted "new and improved mass postures" that that nobody layman Mr. Friend that you referenced . He is a typical example of what the priest have done to destroy the church since Vatican II, in the name of "they didn't know what they were doing before".
Well, I am not from St. Mary's and I have never been anything but Traditional Catholic, and this is what I've always been taught.
I've highlighted a point which you must have missed, I was talking about standing at the Preface and the Sanctus at Low Mass!!!! I am sure that you did not mean that you were always taught to stand at the Preface and the Sanctus at Low Mass.
I'm sure you missed that. Would you like to try again?
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Now, the practice in St. Mary's Kansas of Standing at the Preface and the Sanctus at Low Mass is a novelty that for certain started also at St. Mary's, Kansas and the practice is unheard of in any USA trad chapel of any kind, whether FSSP, ICK, Indult, Independent, Sede or whatever. In fact I had never heard or read of this practice anywhere in the USA prior to hearing of it from students at St. Mary's.
M'kay. Clearly you are here to grind an axe. Don't let me stop you with the facts.
If questioning a LOW MASS practice that was not done at any church in the USA prior to Vatican II, and not done by any trad priest after Vat II changes to this day, except at St. Mary's Kansas since quite recently is "grinding an axe" to you, then anything goes, you we might as well join the personally concocted "new and improved mass postures" that that nobody layman Mr. Friend that you referenced . He is a typical example of what the priest have done to destroy the church since Vatican II, in the name of "they didn't know what they were doing before".
Well, I am not from St. Mary's and I have never been anything but Traditional Catholic, and this is what I've always been taught.
I've highlighted a point which you must have missed, I was talking about standing at the Preface and the Sanctus at Low Mass!!!! I am sure that you did not mean that you were always taught to stand at the Preface and the Sanctus at Low Mass.
I'm sure you missed that. Would you like to try again?
Dear Lord! You're joking, right? Be honest. You didn't actually read anything in the link I provided, right? I prefer to believe that than the alternative--that someone can be, at the same time, so incredibly self-assured yet completely unable to read and comprehend.
There is only one reason for me to continue this with you and that is for my mere amusement. I have other sources for amusement (and even instructing the ignorant has its limits), so I will just leave you with this last hint: Have someone read "Table 2" and "Table 3" to you.