Author Topic: Standing during Sanctus and Agnus Dei??? (Read 7600 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2016, 08:00:27 AM »

Let's worry about bigger issues. I personally like these rubrics. I also agree that the faithful should sit for the Epistle even for Low Masses.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #16 on:** January 04, 2016, 08:56:30 AM »

Quote from: TheRealMcCoy

The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand. There's also instructions for bowing.

Thoughts?

Quote from: Ladislaus

Let's worry about bigger issues. I personally like these rubrics. I also agree that the faithful should sit for the Epistle even for Low Masses.

Ladislaus response reminds me of the Novus Ordo mass attendees and the final trigger that causes them to leave and go to tradition. Ladislaus says he personally likes the rubric changes (though he does not identify the changes). Ladislaus wake up call level has not been reached yet. Others are more sensitive to the change and are protesting by leaving or fighting it.

If we are real traditionalists we should be consistent in our following what was always done, rather than accepting a change because "we personally like it". The issue should not be whether it is harmful, or whether we like it or not, the issue is whether we are changing a custom in our country. The issue is that the biggest contributor to the destruction which occurred in the post Vatican II church is the individual priests deciding on their own what is best to "improve" the way we worship. It appears to be a failing in the DNA of priests that makes them feel like they are alone in the altar and need the to constantly hear the faithful participating and moving about.

Dear TheRealMcCoy,

What is this card they gave you. Does it have an imprimatur or it it just the whim of the local priest. I have not heard of any SSPX Menzingen universal written instruction for mass postures. It is the individual priest that is doing it.
No priest has a right to change the customs of a country into the customs of other countries or what is more likely, his own concocted mass postures.

.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2016, 09:05:57 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

If we are real traditionalists we should be consistent in our following what was always done, rather than accepting a change because "we personally like it".

Others have already pointed out that the rubrics for the faithful are a matter of custom and not prescribed by the Church.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2016, 09:48:47 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Last Tradhican
If we are real traditionalists we should be consistent in our following what was always done, rather than accepting a change because "we personally like it".

Others have already pointed out that the rubrics for the faithful are a matter of custom and not prescribed by the Church.

My posting was long and you only quoted this small part. I don't understand your response, what are you trying to say? We all know that the mass postures are a matter of custom. It is clear in what I wrote that we do not tamper with the customs. All traditions are customs, but not all traditions are prescribed by the Church. We know the mass postures are customs and not prescribed by the Church.

Are you saying that because a custom is not prescribed by the Church that it can be changed at the whim of the priest? Are you saying that because something is not prescribed it does not matter to you if it is changed?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2016, 09:58:02 AM »

Ironically, I was just looking at the 1937 Father Lasance Missal someone else posted here, and it indicates remaining kneeling from the Sanctus until Communion even at High Mass ... which nobody ever does anymore. Customs change. If I recall from the SSPX seminary days, some of the rubrics described here have been common in Europe for the longest time, so this may be little more than the SSPX trying to get everyone across the world on the same page (using Europe as the standard). In any case, since these changes are custom and can change over time and place, it's not really that big of a deal. If we see true signs of modernism in the SSPX, then go for it. LONG before these latest reconciliation efforts, the SSPX tried to promote the Dialogue Mass, but that flopped and isn't done much anymore.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2016, 09:59:04 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Are you saying that because a custom is not prescribed by the Church that it can be changed at the whim of the priest? Are you saying that because something is not prescribed it does not matter to you if it is changed?

No, not on a whim. But, if for instance the SSPX were to start using European customs over here in the US, then that's hardly based on a whim.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #21 on:** January 04, 2016, 11:20:13 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Ironically, I was just looking at the 1937 Father Lasance Missal someone else posted here, and it indicates remaining kneeling from the Sanctus until Communion even at High Mass ... which nobody ever does anymore. Customs change. If I recall from the SSPX seminary days, some of the rubrics described here have been common in Europe for the longest time, so this may be little more than the SSPX trying to get everyone across the world on the same page (using Europe as the standard). In any case, since these changes are custom and can change over time and place, it's not really that big of a deal.

Once again you prove my point:

Quote

"Ladislaus response reminds me of the Novus Ordo mass attendees and the final trigger that causes them to leave and go to tradition. Ladislaus says he personally likes the rubric changes (though he does not identify the changes). Ladislaus wake up call level has not been reached yet. Others are more sensitive to the change and are protesting by leaving or fighting it.

If we are real traditionalists we should be consistent in our following what was always done, rather than accepting a change because "we personally like it". The issue should not be whether it is harmful, or whether we like it or not, the issue is whether we are changing a custom in our country. The issue is that the biggest contributor to the destruction which occurred in the post Vatican II church is the individual priests deciding on their own what is best to "improve" the way we worship. It appears to be a failing in the DNA of priests that makes them feel like they are alone in the altar and need the to constantly hear the faithful participating and moving about".

A simple "harmless" pill has side effects which can be deadly. The principle that a priest at his whim can change the customs of a country is what created the Vatican II church at the local church level, the only place where the laity deal with the Church.

By the way, it is in the schools and the universities that all change/revolution is started. In the case of the SSPX in the USA, just like the Church in the 1950's and on, it is the grade school children at say, St. Mary's Kansas, and the seminarians at Winona that are taught the changes. It is then brought to the parishes by the young priests and the students teach the parents that they were wrong.

I'd suggest you read up on the subject, as there is no "European" custom, there are different customs in Spain, France, Germany, Italy...... the USA

By the way, France was the crucible of the liturgical revolution, in the 1930's and even earlier they already were changing everything. I doubt any Frenchmen exist who know what there traditions were prior. Moreover, France is hardly a country to emulate since 98% of French Catholics do not go to mass.

A "European mass postures customs expert" may just be an oxymoron.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #22 on:** January 04, 2016, 11:33:21 AM »

Quote

By the way, it is in the schools and the universities that all change/revolution is started. In the case of the SSPX in the USA, just like the Church in the 1950's and on, it is the grade school children at say, St. Mary's Kansas, and the seminarians at Winona that are taught the changes. It is then brought to the parishes by the young priests and the students teach the parents that they were wrong.

It is a work of darkness to bring change via the K-12 schools and the universities (seminaries). If a change is good, it should be brought out to the light and explained to everyone.

How would it be done if it was in the light?:

If it is being orchestrated by the SSPX, there should be an instruction from Bishop Fellay of what these changes are and why they are being made. The why would show where it is the correct or better tradition. You will never see this instruction, as every Catholic country would have to change their own customs.

I repeat, it is at the whim of the individual priests that changes are being made. There is no standard.

I'd be curious to see what would happen if an old American SSPX went to France and changed their current "customs", like ordering the women to wear veils and no jeans and pants at mass. You'd have a revolution.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #23 on:** January 04, 2016, 11:43:51 AM »

Quote from: TheRealMcCoy

The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand. There's also instructions for bowing.

Thoughts?

I am told that at St. Mary's Kansas the largest SSPX school in the world, the students were taught (and now the whole congregation does the same) that you stand up during the Preface and the Sanctus at LOW MASS.

You will likely find the same being taught at the other big SSPX schools and the seminary. It only takes a few priest to bring change upon the entire USA SSPX.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #24 on:** January 04, 2016, 12:21:39 PM »

Matto · « **Reply #25 on:** January 04, 2016, 02:57:25 PM »

At my chapel we have a low Mass and we kneel for those parts of the Mass. In fact we kneel for the majority of the Mass, much more than we sit or stand.

Raphaela · « **Reply #26 on:** January 04, 2016, 04:10:36 PM »

As several people have said here, the Church has never said what the faithful should do during Mass. Some suggestions appeared in pre-VII missals, but these were copied from what clerics assisting in the sanctuary (but not taking part in the Mass) had to do, just so priests were not seen to be obviously doing different things. But to apply this to the laity was just a bright idea of missal editors and probably some individual priests.

Personally, I kneel right through a Low Mass and just stand for the Gospels and the Creed. There's a practical reason - the noise made by people standing up, sometimes with scraping of chairs, etc., often drowns out the first part of the Epistle, especially if it's a short one. And as I feel it's fitting to kneel for the Preface (the 'Little Canon'), which is not part of the Offertory, it's simpler to kneel for the Offertory as well. I find a lot of getting up and down is just distracting. But I don't mind what anyone else does!

I remember reading a comment by an Italian lady visiting England, quoted in a book by Sir Arnold Lunn in the '50s. She said she found it difficult to get used to the English 'synchronised Masses' where everyone did the same thing - in Italy everyone did as they pleased. So uniformity was already creeping in, perhaps under the influence of the Liturgical Movement.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #27 on:** January 04, 2016, 07:40:41 PM »

Quote from: Raphaela

She said she found it difficult to get used to the English 'synchronised Masses' where everyone did the same thing - in Italy everyone did as they pleased.

Thanks for that enlightening post. I never heard that before. Sounds Italian, very free.

Graham · « **Reply #28 on:** January 05, 2016, 10:47:13 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote from: Raphaela

She said she found it difficult to get used to the English 'synchronised Masses' where everyone did the same thing - in Italy everyone did as they pleased.

Thanks for that enlightening post. I never heard that before. Sounds Italian, very free.

I don't think Italy, as a whole, has ever been renowned for its liturgical correctness. If someone told me that in Italy they used to begin the mass by having a castrato burst into the nave bellowing an aria from Carmen while riding a snow white stallion, I wouldn't be surprised.

Student of Qi · « **Reply #29 on:** January 05, 2016, 10:51:29 AM »

Quote from: TheRealMcCoy

The SSPX put out new mass instruction cards that state for High Mass during the Pater Noster, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei we are to stand. There's also instructions for bowing.

Thoughts?

Where I come from the people kneel from the Sanctus until the Pater Noster when they stand. Everyone kneels again at the Agnus Dei until the last "Dominus Vobiscuм". The positions are the same for servers and faithful. It has been this way for years. It's the custom of the south. Every Mexican priest I have served Mass for does it this way.

As another poster said, it is really a matter of local custom.