Author Topic: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality  (Read 1442 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Geremia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2342
  • Reputation: +676/-113
  • Gender: Male
    • St. Isidore e-book library
St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
« on: December 08, 2014, 02:47:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Thomas Aquinas, commenting on Rom. 1:24
    Quote
    Wherefore, God gave them up to the desires of their heart [because they "worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (v. 25)], unto uncleanness: to dishonor their own bodies among themselves
    in cap. 1 l. 7, discusses the causality of homosexuality:
    Quote
    139. But since impurity of this kind is a sin, it seems that God would not give men over to it: God himself tempts no one to evil (Jas 1:13).

    The answer is that God does not give men over to impurity directly, as though inclining a man's affection toward evil, because God ordains all things to himself: the Lord has made everything for himself (Prov 16:4), whereas something is sinful through its turning from him. But he gives men over to sin indirectly, inasmuch as he justly withdraws the grace through which men are kept from sinning, just as a person would be said to cause another to fall, if he removed the ladder supporting him. In this way, one's first sin is a cause of the next, which is at the same time a punishment for the first one.

    To understand this it should be noted that one sin can be the cause of another directly or indirectly: directly, inasmuch as from one sin he is inclined to another in any of three ways. In one way, when it acts as a final cause; for example, when someone from greed or envy is incited to commit murder. Second, when it acts as a material cause, as gluttony leads to lust by administering the material. Third, when it acts as a moving cause, as when many repetitions of the same sin produce a habit inclining a person to repeat the sin.

    Indirectly, when the first sin merits the exclusion of grace, so that once it is removed, a man falls into another sin. In this way the first sin is the cause of the second indirectly or incidentally, inasmuch as it removes the preventative.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    (translation from: Larcher, Fabian R., trans. Commentary on the Letter of Saint Paul to the Romans, ed. John Mortensen and Enrique Alarcón, with parallel Latin and the Greek text of the epistle. Lander, Wyo.: The Aquinas Institute for the Study of Sacred Doctrine, 2012. pp. 47-8)


    Important parts:

    "God does not give men over to impurity directly, as though inclining a man's affection toward evil"
    In other words: He, the Author of nature, does not put same-sex attraction in human nature.

    St. Thomas clearly says: "one's first sin" (in this case: idolatry, turning away from God, "worshiping and serving the creature rather than the Creator") "is a cause of the next" (in this case: homosexuality, "uncleanness," "dishonoring their own bodies among themselves").
    Thus homosexuals' personal sins made them homosexual.
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre

    Offline Joe73

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 3
    • Reputation: +1/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #1 on: August 09, 2017, 12:06:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • I know this is an old post, but I think people are still reading it. I have to disagree with your conclusion, I know it was just a simple mistake, but it might make people confused. I don't want people to automatically assume they are responsible for having homosexual attractions. The main mistake you made was confusing the words and definitions. The definition of homosexual is one who is sexually attracted to the same sex. If you go by that definition, Your conclusion: "homosexual's personal sins made them homosexual" is not proven. I've explained how down below. I am a sucker for arguing, I took a class on logic once. and I couldn't resist writing down a very logical argument. If you enjoy logical debate you can read it below. otherwise you don't have to, and you might find it annoying. Sorry about that...

    Code: [Select]
    Your evidence from St. Thomas: it is not in human nature(God' design, for use to be inclined towards sin)I have reworded this: All humans unaffected by sin are not humans that have an inclination to sinWe know homosexuals have an inclination to sin(homosexual feelings)So logically this is what we can learn

    All [b]humans unaffected by sin[/b] are not [b]humans that have an inclination to sin[/b]
    All Homosexuals are [b]humans that have an inclination to sin[/b]
    Therefore [b]homosexuals[/b] are not [b]humans unaffected by sin[/b]
     (reworded: Homosexuals have been affected by sin)
    So we know homosexuals have been affected by sin. We don't know what type of sin(personal sin, original sin, another's sin...)[list][li]Your next piece of evidence for St. Thomas was: sins are indirectly caused/enabled by ones first sin(any sin before the current one).[/li]
    [/list]


    All [b]Subsequent sins [/b]are [b]sins(indirectly or incidentally)caused by one's first sin[/b]
    [b]all homosexual actions[/b] are [b]subsequent sins[/b](probably)
    Therefore [b]all homosexual actions [/b]are[b] sins(indirectly or incidentally) caused by one's first sin[/b]
    (reworded: homosexual actions are enabled/indirectly caused by ones first sin(their personal sin).
    Lets put those two together


    Homosexuals have been affected by sin
    homosexual actions are caused/affected by personal sin


    [i]This is what we can conclude.[/i]


    [i]The problem is you got homosexual persons, and homosexual actions mixed up. first argument doesn't quite prove your conclusion(as explained above).[/i]
    [i]You mixed up the words in the second conclusion. If I change homosexual actions to homosexual, then I end up with your conclusion.[/i]

    Homosexuals are caused/affected by personal sin aka homosexual's personal sins made them homosexual.


    Offline Geremia

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2342
    • Reputation: +676/-113
    • Gender: Male
      • St. Isidore e-book library
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #2 on: August 10, 2017, 01:39:46 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't want people to automatically assume they are responsible for having homosexual attractions.
    Of course they are. Effeminacy itself is a mortal sin, and so is men sleeping with men (cf. 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and chapter 15 of the 6th session of the Council of Trent).
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre

    Offline Joe73

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 3
    • Reputation: +1/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 12:37:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Of course they are. Effeminacy itself is a mortal sin, and so is men sleeping with men (cf. 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and chapter 15 of the 6th session of the Council of Trent).
    I know that.
    Sorry I wasn't clear.
    That's not what I meant by responsible.

    What I meant is that they shouldn't feel ashamed for having the feelings.
    Yes they are responsible for dealing with them, and to not act on them, but their feelings are not neccessarily the result of their previous actions

    Offline Marlelar

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2935
    • Reputation: +1558/-27
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 01:41:17 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • The initial "feeling" or "attraction" was suggested by Satan and/or his minions (it is not something they were born with).  I think he (Satan) is always testing us, baiting us, to find our weaknesses and then doing whatever he can to exploit those weaknesses and lure us deeper into sin.

    Those who are not close to God do not have the strength or wisdom to flee temptations and are then "given over" to the sin which continues to spiral downward out of control.

    People choose whether to stay close to God and avail themselves of the graces He gives, or drift away and get caught up in the whirlpool of sin that is offered by the Prince of this world.

    So while people with temptation to homosexuality may "honestly" believe they were born that way, I think it is only because they were either not taught at an early age to attach themselves to God, or rejected Him at some point for some unacknowledged reason.



    Offline nctradcath

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 456
    • Reputation: +237/-97
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 01:49:09 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The above seems to ignore that many of the incorrect inclinations can also come from being molested as a young child by a man or a woman and causing a warped view of the act in the child. Homosexuals usually were molested or raped as children, have distant or absent fathers, and overbearing mothers. We should never overlook the above when discussing the issue.

    Offline nctradcath

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 456
    • Reputation: +237/-97
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 01:52:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Many "lesbians" are often the result of severe sexual abuse as children and from witnessing their mother's being beaten and rejected by cruel men which causes them to reject attraction to men or true feminity because they confuse being a woman and true feminity with the pathetic creature that they witnessed as their mother.

    Offline nctradcath

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 456
    • Reputation: +237/-97
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #7 on: August 11, 2017, 01:58:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is not surprising that we seen such a prevalence of such behavior amongst blacks because of the huge and unreported plague of child sexual abuse and female abuse in their culture in the USA.


    Offline Marlelar

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2935
    • Reputation: +1558/-27
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #8 on: August 11, 2017, 02:34:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I readily admit that abuse influences a person's actions but I think that would fall under the "unacknowledged" reason.  

    People who are abused need professional counseling, and although their status as victims of abuse would be an explanation for their unnatural inclinations, I don't think it is a valid excuse for their ongoing actions because there is a difference between being able to explain an action and excusing it.

    Another example would be a boy who sees his father regularly beating his mother and then grows up to be a wife beater himself.  His childhood experience would explain his actions as an adult, but it does not excuse it.

    Knowing the "why" is a crucial first step in changing behavior, so people tempted by homosexuality should try to figure out the "why", not just give up and say "God must have made me this way".

    As St. Thomas points out, people are not "made" that way, so they can change their behavior.

    Offline Joe73

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 3
    • Reputation: +1/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #9 on: August 12, 2017, 12:59:58 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I agree with a lot of what is being said. I believe homosexuality is usually related to identity trauma in childhood. There is a spiritual battle as well of course, the devil and other fallen angels want people to be confused and follow sin.

    I thought I was homosexual from 14 to 18 and 1/2 years old. I went to counseling, and I finally believed It was not a born condition. There are certainly sins that increase homosexual desire (like exploring pornography), but their are wounds that make it easier to have a desire for it.


    Knowing why allowed me to heal tremendously in about half a year. I used to have homosexual feelings all of the time, but now they hardly show up, and the wall that kept me from having feelings for women is very gradually moving out of the way.

    But yes, not being close to God allows one to be in homosexuality more readily.
    I had to fix my terrible relationship with God, I was always asking for stuff, but not willing to give. I was living a double life, pretending I wasn't living in lust. It was after I began to fear hell, and turned to God for help, and received it, That I was able to change.

    Offline Geremia

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2342
    • Reputation: +676/-113
    • Gender: Male
      • St. Isidore e-book library
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #10 on: August 21, 2017, 09:30:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • their status as victims of abuse would be an explanation for their unnatural inclinations, I don't think it is a valid excuse for their ongoing actions because there is a difference between being able to explain an action and excusing it.

    Another example would be a boy who sees his father regularly beating his mother and then grows up to be a wife beater himself.  His childhood experience would explain his actions as an adult, but it does not excuse it.
    well said
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre


    Offline Geremia

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2342
    • Reputation: +676/-113
    • Gender: Male
      • St. Isidore e-book library
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #11 on: August 21, 2017, 09:38:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What I meant is that they shouldn't feel ashamed for having the feelings.
    If they are entertaining these feelings, holding onto them, they should be ashamed.
    If they are being tempted, while not placing themselves into temptation, they must fight.
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre

    Online DZ PLEASE

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1351
    • Reputation: +227/-211
    • Gender: Male
    • PM to convo. (No females w/out due cause.)
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #12 on: August 21, 2017, 09:46:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • … and if we fight a sinful inclination,  toying with sinful occasion being no fight at all, then we are exercising virtue.

    Can't go too light with the carrot if you're swinging the stick.
    If they are entertaining these feelings, holding onto them, they should be ashamed.
    If they are being tempted, while not placing themselves into temptation, they must fight.

    Offline MaterDolorosa

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 21
    • Reputation: +7/-0
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #13 on: August 25, 2017, 07:53:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Of course, it is possible to have evil desires. If our desires are evil then the remedy is penance and conversion. If you don't eradicate the cause of the desire, which is sin, it will become your master. And of course it is blasphemy to suggest that God could create someone as a homosexual. That's like saying God created a psychopath to be a psychopath. 
    Really, its not so much about saying that God created them that way as denying the Creater himself, since 'male and female He created them".

    Offline harris

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 13
    • Reputation: +17/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: St. Thomas on the Causality of Homosexuality
    « Reply #14 on: August 26, 2017, 01:11:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • To me the greatest help is - the moment we have a "feeling" that if acted upon could lead us into sin, we should pray and confess our weakness and possibly our sin if that is the case.  Our Lord and our Lady will ALWAYS help us.  Peace will be restored to our soul and we will be able to move beyond our feelings.  I've done this many times, as I'm sure you all have too.  

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 
    Powered by SMFPacks WYSIWYG Editor