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Author Topic: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs  (Read 2135 times)

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Offline rum

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St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
« on: October 05, 2018, 07:21:53 PM »
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  • I've seen this quote floating around the internet, attributed to St. Aquinas:

    "It would be licit, according to custom, to hold the Jєωs in perpetual servitude for their crime against Our Lord."

    It appears this quote is a misquote inspired by De Regimine Judaeorum, where St. Aquinas writes:

    "the Jєωs by reason of their fault are sentenced to perpetual servitude".

    But St. Aquinas is not saying here that Jєωs should be subjected to chattel slavery, but that Jєωs who acquire wealth through usury should have their assets stripped from them by the state.

    However, I read Wikipedia's Christianity and antisemitism page (and would appreciate a better source if anyone can help) that St. Augustine favored "enslavement of Jєωs to Catholics". And St. Chrysostom "went so far to say that because Jєωs rejected the Christian God in human flesh, Christ, they therefore deserved to be killed."

    I'd like to think that this is true of St. Augustine and St. Chrysostom.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.


    Offline Banezian

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #1 on: October 05, 2018, 09:21:58 PM »
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  • I agree with you, but please do NOT call him “St. Aquinas.” That makes you sound silly. St. Thomas, St. Thomas Aquinas, Thomas, Aquinas. Those are all names one can call him. Not “St. Aquinas”
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9


    Offline rum

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #2 on: October 05, 2018, 11:48:49 PM »
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  • Do you agree with me that it's a good thing if St. Augustine wanted Jєωs to be slaves of the Church and St. Chrysostom wanted them killed?
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #3 on: October 06, 2018, 12:29:41 AM »
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  • Quote
    However, I read Wikipedia's Christianity and antisemitism page (and would appreciate a better source if anyone can help) that St. Augustine favored "enslavement of Jєωs to Catholics". And St. Chrysostom "went so far to say that because Jєωs rejected the Christian God in human flesh, Christ, they therefore deserved to be killed."


    That Wikipedia article is quoting here the 2011 book "A History of Catholic Antisemitism" written by Robert Michael, an enemy of the Catholic religion, and most likely a Jєω himself, so I would not believe his interpretation of St. Chrysostom' words.  He's on the Enemy's side.

    As for St. Chrysostom's words themselves, I'm not sure where exactly they come from, but it seems the Father was referring to the Biblical passage of Luke 19,27. It would be good to read it in context to understand what he means.


    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #4 on: October 06, 2018, 12:35:00 AM »
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  • Honestly, with these credentials, I would be reluctant to believe anything this author has to say on the matter. I would like to know where the original quote comes from, if it actually exists.

    Editorial Review on "A History of Catholic Antisemitism, the Dark Side of the Church":
    Quote
    Review

    "Michael's work is path-breaking, in that few before him have tackled both the historical and theological foundations of Catholic antisemitism and, at the same time, traced its path from biblical times all the way through to Auschwitz. In this, Michael is brave; but, as this outstanding work shows, his bravery is vindicated. His treatment of such topics as the Church’s age-old and ongoing dehumanization of the Jєωs, coupled with its failure to confront that supreme manifestation of evil that became manifest in the nαzιs, is an important contribution to an already massive literature on antisemitism and the h0Ɩ0cαųst."
    --Paul R. Bartrop, Head, Department of History, Bialik College, Melbourne, Australia

    About the Author

    Robert Michael is Professor Emeritus of European History at the University of Massachusetts, Dartmouth. Listed in Who's Who in America, Professor Michael was a 1997 recipient of the American Historical Association's James Harvey Robinson Prize for the "most outstanding contribution to the teaching and learning of history." A founder of the scholarly e-mail lists H-Antisemitism and H-W-Civ, Dr. Michael has published more than fifty articles and ten books on the history of antisemitism and the h0Ɩ0cαųst.
     


    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #5 on: October 06, 2018, 02:48:28 AM »
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  • That IS a very, very biased source and very likely disreputable here.

    Even then, one should not say it's a good thing that an entire race of people is killed.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #6 on: October 06, 2018, 10:22:02 AM »
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  • I couldn't find anything on St. Augustine favoring slavery of the Jєωs.  Had he, it would have not been chattel, I don't think.

    As far as St. Chrysostom goes, one finds this, although it'd have to be stretched beyond its pretty clear meaning (he's talking about God-given chastisements of the Jєωs in the OT) to get to "he favored killing Jєωs":


    Quote
    (5) But what is the source of this hardness? It come from gluttony and drunkenness. Who say so? Moses himself. "Israel ate and was filled and the darling grew fat and frisky". When brute animals feed from a full manger, they grow plump and become more obstinate and hard to hold in check; they endure neither the yoke, the reins, nor the hand of the charioteer. Just so the Jєωιѕн people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil; they kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching. Another prophet hinted at this when he said: "Israel is as obstinate as a stubborn heifer". And still another called the Jєωs "an untamed calf".

    (6) Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jєωs: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them". You Jєωs should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: "I did not choose this fast, say the Lord". Why? "You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists". But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right? (Against the Jєωs, "Homily 1", paras. 5-6, link)

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline 800 Cruiser

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #7 on: October 06, 2018, 01:43:34 PM »
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  • Could it be that the slaughter he refers to is their eternal stay in Gehenna?


    Offline rum

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #8 on: October 06, 2018, 07:53:35 PM »
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  • The papal bulls Dum Diversas (1452) and Romanus Pontifex (1454) sanctioned slavery of pagan Africans.

    It strikes me as odd, if true, that no Churchman has ever been in favor of enslaving Jєωs, when there are instances of Churchmen in favor of enslavement of far less evil peoples than Jєωs.

    Jesuits in this country owned slaves: https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/18/living/georgetown-slavery-service/index.html

    Since Jєωs are the most evil humans, I would think some notable Churchmen of ages past were in favor of enslaving them.

    Pagans aren't nearly as bad as Jєωs.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #9 on: October 08, 2018, 10:58:15 AM »
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  • And what is basis for the Ten Commandments?

    Do no evil.

    Enslaving another human being is evil.

    Offline rum

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #10 on: October 09, 2018, 04:13:57 AM »
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  • Enslaving another human being is evil.
    Not according to Catholics of ages past.

    I don't buy the argument that slavery is immoral. It's immorality hinges on who is being enslaved. Remember, prisoners with life sentences are slaves and no one bats an eyelash.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 05:08:00 AM »
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  • But enslaving an entire religion of people (Jєωs) is just fine?
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 10:11:20 AM »
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  • Not according to Catholics of ages past.

    I don't buy the argument that slavery is immoral. It's immorality hinges on who is being enslaved. Remember, prisoners with life sentences are slaves and no one bats an eyelash.
    .
    Slavery as such isn't immoral, if we understand it merely as the compelled servitude of one toward another.  "Indentured servitude" is really probably a more precise term, distinguishing it from chattel.  I'm not so sure one can find any support for the morality of chattel slavery.
    .
    The two docuмents you referenced are not supportive of chattel.  From what I've been able to find, they are not papally sanctioned raids for a slave trade but rather permissions to enslave those infidels whom the Portuguese were driving from their lands (Both docuмents are letters written to Alfonso V of Portugal from Pope Nicholas V).  Which of course has always been a fairly usual practice among nations, and not one the Church has ever condemned. 
    .
    As far as the Jєωs go, I think the usual measure taken by princes was simply to expel them or force them to identify themselves.  I'm not so sure slavery would even have occurred to such princes as an especially wise idea, since Jєωs were known to corrupt Catholics.  Would a Lord really want his Lady waited on by Jєωs?  When the Jєωs proved troublesome, as they usually did, segregation-- not servitude-- was the remedy. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline rum

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #13 on: October 10, 2018, 01:27:33 PM »
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  • Not a very useful remedy, but better than nothing.

    Enslaving people doesn't require that they live in your home. Not that I think enslaving Jєωs is the ideal solution to the Jєωιѕн problem.

    Hey, I was just browsing your forum and see that you still use the Kenneth Branagh avatar you've had since FE. You'd think you'd want an avatar not including an overt Jєω (Ian Holm) and a crypto (Branagh). Yes, they're playing Shakespearean characters, but it's still a bit off.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: St. Thomas Aquinas Was Not for Enslaving Jєωs
    « Reply #14 on: October 10, 2018, 02:40:10 PM »
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  • Think of it as me appropriating them into my servitude.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).