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Author Topic: St. John alive and could fix all theological difficulties  (Read 1272 times)

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Offline nctradcath

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St. John alive and could fix all theological difficulties
« on: January 15, 2017, 03:29:48 PM »
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  • http://traditioninaction.org/religious/a071Knock_9.html

    What does the forum think? This would be wonderful.


    Offline Prayerful

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    St. John alive and could fix all theological difficulties
    « Reply #1 on: January 15, 2017, 04:17:24 PM »
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  • I'm only starting on the article, but TIA have had a lot of fine article on the Knock apparitions. Knock was different. The vision was of the Bless Virgin Mary, St Joseph and St John. Moreover the vision was silent and was witnessed by a larger number than usual, in this case fifteen people.


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    St. John alive and could fix all theological difficulties
    « Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 07:24:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: nctradcath
    http://traditioninaction.org/religious/a071Knock_9.html

    What does the forum think? This would be wonderful.


    Quote from: Article
    “As for the fact that St. John will return and will prophesize at the end of the world, there are serious Doctors from the past and even some in our time who are of this opinion” (3).


    Why not?
    Quote

    21] Him therefore when Peter had seen, he saith to Jesus: Lord, and what shall this man do? [22] Jesus saith to him: So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee? follow thou me. [23] This saying therefore went abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die. And Jesus did not say to him: He should not die; but, So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee? (John, Chapter  21)


    According to Bl. Anna maria Taigi, SS Peter and Paul will come down from Heaven to preach and elect the new pope.

    Quote

    "After the three days of darkness, St. Peter and St. Paul, having come down from Heaven, will preach in the whole world and designate a new Pope. A great light will flash from their bodies and will settle upon the cardinal who is to become Pope. Christianity, then, will spread throughout the world. He is the Holy Pontiff, chosen by God to withstand the storm. At the end, he will have the gift of miracles, and his name shall be praised over the whole earth. Whole nations will come back to the Church and the face of the earth will be renewed. Russia, England, and China will come into the Church." (Prophecy of Blessed Anna Maria Taigi [1769-1837 A.D.] who was Beatified by Bendedict XV in 1920.)
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Croixalist

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    St. John alive and could fix all theological difficulties
    « Reply #3 on: January 15, 2017, 09:44:15 PM »
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  • It is very interesting, however the article fails to address St. John's  tomb in Ephesus or the miraculous "manna" over his grave every May 8th for years, reported by the likes of St. Augustine and others.

    Could God have given the Apostle a glorified body already? Anything is possible, but it's a bit of a stretch and not nearly as compelling as some of the earlier writings on Knock, especially the connections with Fatima, Lourdes and La Salette. Even St. John himself too pains to explain that Christ didn't necessarily mean he wouldn't die, but to tell St. Peter not to worry about what was in store for young Apostle. Maybe there's more to it, so we'll see in the next installment.

    I agree though, it would be pretty awesome.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline poche

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    St. John alive and could fix all theological difficulties
    « Reply #4 on: January 16, 2017, 03:05:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: Croixalist
    It is very interesting, however the article fails to address St. John's  tomb in Ephesus or the miraculous "manna" over his grave every May 8th for years, reported by the likes of St. Augustine and others.

    Could God have given the Apostle a glorified body already? Anything is possible, but it's a bit of a stretch and not nearly as compelling as some of the earlier writings on Knock, especially the connections with Fatima, Lourdes and La Salette. Even St. John himself too pains to explain that Christ didn't necessarily mean he wouldn't die, but to tell St. Peter not to worry about what was in store for young Apostle. Maybe there's more to it, so we'll see in the next installment.

    I agree though, it would be pretty awesome.


    I thought St John the Evangelist died on the island of Patmos.


    Offline Croixalist

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    « Reply #5 on: January 16, 2017, 07:16:59 AM »
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  • The same legend states that he was pardoned by Nerva and allowed to return. I'll keep looking though, might be something more substantial out there.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    St. John alive and could fix all theological difficulties
    « Reply #6 on: January 20, 2017, 06:19:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: poche (Jan 16, 2017, 4:05 am)
    I thought St John the Evangelist died on the island of Patmos.

    Is the Novus Ordo you favor now preaching that St. John suffered ergotism or poisoning by other hallucinogenic fungi instead of nontoxic divine (ahem) revelation?

    Quote from: Leopold Fonck in The Catholic Encyclopedia (1910)
    With Eusebius (Church History III.13.1) and others we are obliged to place the Apostle's banishment to Patmos in the reign of the Emperor Domitian (81--96).  Previous to this, according to Tertullian's testimony (De praescript., xxxvi), John had been thrown into a cauldron of boiling oil before the Porta Latina at Rome without suffering injury. After Domitian's death the Apostle returned to Ephesus during the reign of Trajan, and at Ephesus he died about A.D. 100 at a great age.

    -------
    Note +: Leopold Fonck: "St. John the Evangelist" § "III. The later accounts of John".  C.E. vol. 8. 
    <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08492a.htm#iii>[×].

    Note ×: Silly Novus Ordoïtes at New Advent failed to list this "St. John" on their index page for 'J' (or 'E' or 'A').  They also failed to verify (for the benefit of readers who found the article despite that oversight) that the fragment-id on the above article's top-of-page section-link (upper-case "#III") actually matched the fragment-id at the anchored section (lower-case "#iii").  But maybe they lacked adequate software tools early on, when the all-volunteer task they undertook, including coördination & proofreading of the transcription efforts of a multitude of volunteers, could quite reasonably have seemed overwhelming.  Or maybe fragment-ids weren't case-sensitive in early browsers for MS-Windows.

    Offline cassini

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    St. John alive and could fix all theological difficulties
    « Reply #7 on: January 21, 2017, 06:55:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: Prayerful
    I'm only starting on the article, but TIA have had a lot of fine article on the Knock apparitions. Knock was different. The vision was of the Bless Virgin Mary, St Joseph and St John. Moreover the vision was silent and was witnessed by a larger number than usual, in this case fifteen people.


    Knock was certainly different. A friend of mine loaned me an account that tried to explain its message. I will post some here for those interested.

    Knock and Associated Matters

    In 1879, on a miserable wet night, in a meadow field outside the gable-end of the church of St John the Baptist, there occurred an active but silent (i.e., the figures were speaking but could not be heard) apparition at Knock (from the Gaelic word Cnoc, a hill),  a small town in Connaught in the west of Ireland. The apparition, which lit the immediate area with a brilliant light, included magnificent images of the Virgin Mary, St Joseph, St John the Evangelist, the Lamb on an empty altar, it of course representing Christ and the Sacrifice, and some angels in attendance. This vision, mounted on an invisible platform on top of the tall grass, showed the Blessed Virgin, with her hands held up looking and praying to heaven. It showed a vested St John, superimposed between Mary and the Lamb, holding a book (the Roman missal - now redundant in the post Vatican II era, or perhaps his book of Revelation) in one hand while gesturing in a preaching stance with the other. St Joseph, with his head bowed and glancing sideways, was isolated, separated by a mysterious black line, noticed only by a few of the selected observers and seldom mentioned in books on the apparition.

    "Though the Knock witnesses experienced various emotions – happiness, wonder, devotion, exaltation of spirit, one being moved to tears – not one of them was rapt in ecstasy. None of them heard a word; neither did they receive any interior message or sign. That the Mother of God, who bade Bernadette pray for sinners, who had pleaded for conversion of life at La Salette, for prayers and penance at Fatima, should have remained silent to her devoted Irish children was, and still is, a stumbling block to many. There was no message, they say, so the Apparition is devoid of meaning." --- Mary Purcell, Our Lady of Knock, p.18.

    Of course there was a message. Heaven does not indulge in meaningless pictures, but few, if any, could/can interpret it. The main reason for this is because Knock was not a ‘Marian’ message but a Johannine one, and, like his Apocalypse, has to be read in an allegorical sense (A form of exegesis thrown out by Martin Luther and one that is hardly ever found among modern Catholics). Thus a considerable amount of research on the place and its history is needed to begin to try to interpret the message or warning. So, we can ask: (1) Why Knock: (2) To whom was it addressed: (3) Why was it silent: (4) What was it trying to tell us?  
         
    Before one can possibly try to understand such ‘messages’ from heaven, one must fully accept and comprehend the war declared by God in Genesis 3:15 between the Christ and the antichrist, and how this battle of ‘Principalities and Powers’ is carried out on a temporal and spiritual plane. The message of Knock, we suspect, was, like the Book of Revelation, a warning to the flock of the current state of this war as it was in 1879 and into the future. Here is why we interpret it so:

    Why Knock?
    It is a fact that the only place where the word allegory is mentioned in Scripture is in St Paul’s Letter to the Galatians: ‘things are said by an allegory’ (Gal. 4:24). We also know that it was the Galatians who were advised that if an angel from heaven should preach a different gospel to that which they had been taught, to reject it. (Gal 1:8)

    Scholars on the origin of European peoples tell us that a fair number of the old and true Galatians (Celts) had migrated to Ireland and settled here. Then along came Oliver Cromwell with his infamous reform in the sixteenth century, and ordered all Catholics of Ireland to decide their destiny: ‘To hell or to Connaught’. Choosing Connaught to hell, the Galatians Catholics moved into this desolate, infertile and barren west of Ireland where they continued to be persecuted in any event. It was their descendants that occupied Knock in 1879.
         These then were the same flock that St Paul had advised that ‘things are said by allegory’, a people worthy to convey to the world a message wrapped in allegory.

    A Pattern
    Cromwell, that docuмented Satanist who conquered in the name of God, was the first to deliberately usurp the divine right of kings by purging his own in England and replacing him with the beginnings of freemasonic ‘democracy’, where men and not kings subservient to God would rule the world according to their own laws. Cromwell, who committed untold atrocities against the Catholic Irish, was a champion of what he called ‘religious liberty,’ but this liberty did not include traditional Catholicism and certainly not the traditional Latin Mass which he hated, a policy identical with that pertaining within the Modernist Churchmen of post Vatican II.
         The Parish Priest of Knock at the time was Archdeacon Cavanagh, a saintly man, full of devotion to Our Lady and her Immaculate Conception. Knock, a barren place, poor in earthly goods, but rich in grace and good works, was a fitting place for a message from heaven. In May of 1879, Fr Cavanagh began a novena of 100 Masses for the souls in Purgatory, the final Mass being said on the morning of the day that the vision appeared. Not known to many and hardly ever broached is the fact that in Mayo at the time, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ was active. It has been written that a group of Freemasons from Foxford had planned to ambush Fr Cavanagh and cut off his ears on the day he finished his century of Masses.
         Fascinating and wonderful as the actual events of the sighting were, space does not permit a complete account. We can say the sensational events of the day saved Fr Cavanagh ears, but as divine Providence would have it this saintly priest was not to witness the vision. A reason for this could be to save the vision from accusations of being conjured up by a priest so pious and spiritual that the world may not have believed it. Instead it was to be witnessed by a group of people, of all agers, the likes of which could be found anywhere. Such a group could not be said to have had illusions, nor could a motive for any conspiracy be levelled at them. Great miracles later gave final witness to its authenticity.

    To whom was it Addressed?
    St John the Baptist Church had an inscription on the west wall that read:
    ‘My house shall be called the house of prayer to all nations. This is the gate of the Lord: the just shall enter into it.’
    Knock then was a link ‘to all nations.’ There was also something unique as regards those that witnessed it. Unlike the Marion apparitions of the times, messages confined to one, two or three persons, usually children, eighteen people were granted the sight at Knock, aged between six and seventy-five. Here is a second sign that the vision was meant for the special attention of all those that would heed it.
         Delving back into history we find that in response to Cromwell’s campaign to destroy the Christian Kingdom of Ireland, the Catholic Ecclesiastical Congregation of the Kingdom of Ireland met at Clonmacnoise on the 4th of December 1649, and issued a Motu Proprio, warning Catholics not to be deceived by those supposedly acting in the name of God.  Given the universal nature of a proprio motu, i.e., a message for ‘all nations’, we feel there is a continuity and connection between the three elements mentioned here.    

    If there is an interest in more I will post it.
     











    Offline nctradcath

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    St. John alive and could fix all theological difficulties
    « Reply #8 on: January 21, 2017, 07:13:21 AM »
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  • Thanks for posting the above Cassini.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    « Reply #9 on: January 25, 2017, 11:19:35 AM »
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  • Yes, please post more.  Is there a website?

    Quote
    Even St. John himself too pains to explain that Christ didn't necessarily mean he wouldn't die, but to tell St. Peter not to worry about what was in store for young Apostle.  ...the article fails to address St. John's  tomb in Ephesus or the miraculous "manna" over his grave every May 8th for years, reported by the likes of St. Augustine and others.

    Croixalist, exactly.  Christ didn't say St John wouldn't die, but He simply says that St John wouldn't die until Christ returns.  Also, did not know about the grave in Ephesus, thanks for mentioning.  It could be that St John is not dead but asleep.

    Quote
    Peter turning about, saw that disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also leaned on his breast at supper, and said: Lord, who is he that shall betray thee? 21Him therefore when Peter had seen, he saith to Jesus: Lord, and what shall this man do?  (Peter asking about St John)

    22Jesus saith to him: So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee? follow thou me. 23This saying therefore went abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die. And Jesus did not say to him: He should not die; but, So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    « Reply #10 on: January 25, 2017, 11:42:05 AM »
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  • It's also interesting to note that many saints refer to St John as "the Theologian".  Certainly we need a holy theologian in our day!


    Offline snowball

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    « Reply #11 on: January 29, 2017, 12:34:36 PM »
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  • I was disappointed to see the reference (2) in the article
    does not lead to a Thomic source, but only to a lecture
    of Lapide's.
    We'd have to see where Lapide got this quote from, as I am
    having difficulty believing that St. Thomas Aquinas sported
    apocryphical beliefs. I've quoted the purported excerpt,
    in quotations at various breaks, and have not found it
    elsewhere on the internet, so I actually have no reason
    to believe it's even an accurate quote from Lapide, either.

    For now, if that's ok, I prefer to stick with the Bible.

    John 21:23:
    "Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this
    disciple would not die.
    But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said,
    "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

    This line suggests John the Apostle was already dead
    at the time this portion of the Gospel was finished.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #12 on: January 29, 2017, 06:56:53 PM »
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  • St. John the Evangelist has two feast days on the calendar, May 6th (St. John Before the Latin Gate) and December 27th, his death.

    All the Apostles are considered martyrs. St. John is the exception in that he did not die at the time of his martyrdom however he was subject to, and endured all the pains of martyrdom.  On May 6th he was immersed in a great cauldron of boiling oil "before the Latin gate" (a real place in Rome even to this day), which obviously would have killed anyone, being boiled alive in oil. But it did not kill St. John, who was pulled out healthier and more vigorous than ever, perhaps appearing younger. This sight drove the Roman observers to distraction and St. John was then banished to the Isle of Patmos, where he proceeded to write things including his Apocalypse, which was his description of prophetic visions he had there. It has been the subject of much study and exegesis over the ages but only from the perspective of our time do many of the images he describes make much sense.

    In that vein, perhaps there is something in his suffering the boiling oil and yet surviving that gives us a clue for how he would somehow survive what would have seemed to be death at the later time, "at a great age." The Fathers and even Our Lord repeatedly referred to temporal death as "being asleep (in the Lord)."

    There is a similarity here to the passing of Our Lady, who the Eastern Church attributes not death but her "Dormition" (falling asleep). While Western priests may assure listeners that she did die, nonetheless, when Pope Pius XII defined her Assumption in 1950, he discreetly abstained from saying she "died."

    Enoch and Elias also should be included in this theme as they are expected to return in the end times as well.

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    St. John alive and could fix all theological difficulties
    « Reply #13 on: January 29, 2017, 07:20:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: cassini
    Quote from: Prayerful
    I'm only starting on the article, but TIA have had a lot of fine article on the Knock apparitions. Knock was different. The vision was of the Bless Virgin Mary, St Joseph and St John. Moreover the vision was silent and was witnessed by a larger number than usual, in this case fifteen people.

    Knock was certainly different. A friend of mine loaned me an account that tried to explain its message. I will post some here for those interested.

    Was your friend Deirdre Manifold?

    Quote


    Knock and Associated Matters

    In 1879, on a miserable wet night, in a meadow field outside the gable-end of the church of St John the Baptist, there occurred an active but silent (i.e., the figures were speaking but could not be heard) apparition at Knock (from the Gaelic word Cnoc, a hill),  a small town in Connaught in the west of Ireland. The apparition, which lit the immediate area with a brilliant light, included magnificent images of the Virgin Mary, St Joseph, St John the Evangelist, the Lamb on an empty altar, it of course representing Christ and the Sacrifice, and some angels in attendance. This vision, mounted on an invisible platform on top of the tall grass, showed the Blessed Virgin, with her hands held up looking and praying to heaven. It showed a vested St John, superimposed between Mary and the Lamb, holding a book (the Roman missal - now redundant in the post Vatican II era, or perhaps his book of Revelation) in one hand while gesturing in a preaching stance with the other. St Joseph, with his head bowed and glancing sideways, was isolated, separated by a mysterious black line, noticed only by a few of the selected observers and seldom mentioned in books on the apparition.

    "Though the Knock witnesses experienced various emotions – happiness, wonder, devotion, exaltation of spirit, one being moved to tears – not one of them was rapt in ecstasy. None of them heard a word; neither did they receive any interior message or sign. That the Mother of God, who bade Bernadette pray for sinners, who had pleaded for conversion of life at La Salette, for prayers and penance at Fatima, should have remained silent to her devoted Irish children was, and still is, a stumbling block to many. There was no message, they say, so the Apparition is devoid of meaning." --- Mary Purcell, Our Lady of Knock, p.18.

    Of course there was a message. Heaven does not indulge in meaningless pictures, but few, if any, could/can interpret it. The main reason for this is because Knock was not a ‘Marian’ message but a Johannine one, and, like his Apocalypse, has to be read in an allegorical sense (A form of exegesis thrown out by Martin Luther and one that is hardly ever found among modern Catholics). Thus a considerable amount of research on the place and its history is needed to begin to try to interpret the message or warning. So, we can ask: (1) Why Knock: (2) To whom was it addressed: (3) Why was it silent: (4) What was it trying to tell us?  
         
    Before one can possibly try to understand such ‘messages’ from heaven, one must fully accept and comprehend the war declared by God in Genesis 3:15 between the Christ and the antichrist, and how this battle of ‘Principalities and Powers’ is carried out on a temporal and spiritual plane. The message of Knock, we suspect, was, like the Book of Revelation, a warning to the flock of the current state of this war as it was in 1879 and into the future. Here is why we interpret it so:

    Why Knock?
    It is a fact that the only place where the word allegory is mentioned in Scripture is in St Paul’s Letter to the Galatians: ‘things are said by an allegory’ (Gal. 4:24). We also know that it was the Galatians who were advised that if an angel from heaven should preach a different gospel to that which they had been taught, to reject it. (Gal 1:8)

    Scholars on the origin of European peoples tell us that a fair number of the old and true Galatians (Celts) had migrated to Ireland and settled here. Then along came Oliver Cromwell with his infamous reform in the sixteenth century, and ordered all Catholics of Ireland to decide their destiny: ‘To hell or to Connaught’. Choosing Connaught to hell, the Galatians Catholics moved into this desolate, infertile and barren west of Ireland where they continued to be persecuted in any event. It was their descendants that occupied Knock in 1879.

         These then were the same flock that St Paul had advised that ‘things are said by allegory’, a people worthy to convey to the world a message wrapped in allegory.

    A Pattern
    Cromwell, that docuмented Satanist who conquered in the name of God, was the first to deliberately usurp the divine right of kings by purging his own in England and replacing him with the beginnings of freemasonic ‘democracy’, where men and not kings subservient to God would rule the world according to their own laws. Cromwell, who committed untold atrocities against the Catholic Irish, was a champion of what he called ‘religious liberty,’ but this liberty did not include traditional Catholicism and certainly not the traditional Latin Mass which he hated, a policy identical with that pertaining within the Modernist Churchmen of post Vatican II.

         The Parish Priest of Knock at the time was Archdeacon Cavanagh, a saintly man, full of devotion to Our Lady and her Immaculate Conception. Knock, a barren place, poor in earthly goods, but rich in grace and good works, was a fitting place for a message from heaven. In May of 1879, Fr Cavanagh began a novena of 100 Masses for the souls in Purgatory, the final Mass being said on the morning of the day that the vision appeared. Not known to many and hardly ever broached is the fact that in Mayo at the time, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ was active. It has been written that a group of Freemasons from Foxford had planned to ambush Fr Cavanagh and cut off his ears on the day he finished his century of Masses.

         Fascinating and wonderful as the actual events of the sighting were, space does not permit a complete account. We can say the sensational events of the day saved Fr Cavanagh ears, but as divine Providence would have it this saintly priest was not to witness the vision. A reason for this could be to save the vision from accusations of being conjured up by a priest so pious and spiritual that the world may not have believed it. Instead it was to be witnessed by a group of people, of all agers, the likes of which could be found anywhere. Such a group could not be said to have had illusions, nor could a motive for any conspiracy be levelled at them. Great miracles later gave final witness to its authenticity.

    To whom was it Addressed?
    St John the Baptist Church had an inscription on the west wall that read:
    ‘My house shall be called the house of prayer to all nations. This is the gate of the Lord: the just shall enter into it.’

    Knock then was a link ‘to all nations.’ There was also something unique as regards those that witnessed it. Unlike the Marion apparitions of the times, messages confined to one, two or three persons, usually children, eighteen people were granted the sight at Knock, aged between six and seventy-five. Here is a second sign that the vision was meant for the special attention of all those that would heed it.

         Delving back into history we find that in response to Cromwell’s campaign to destroy the Christian Kingdom of Ireland, the Catholic Ecclesiastical Congregation of the Kingdom of Ireland met at Clonmacnoise on the 4th of December 1649, and issued a Motu Proprio, warning Catholics not to be deceived by those supposedly acting in the name of God.  Given the universal nature of a proprio motu, i.e., a message for ‘all nations’, we feel there is a continuity and connection between the three elements mentioned here.    

    If there is an interest in more I will post it.


    Please post more!!!

    BTW a motu proprio, when given by the Pope, is an announcement given "on his own initiative."  So I'm not clear on how this could mean "a message for all nations."

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.