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Author Topic: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations  (Read 48278 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2019, 01:37:19 PM »
Quote
if doubt still remains after being investigated, then the priest gets conditional ordination
Obviously, yes.  But my point is, the sspx can NEVER do an investigation which is thorough enough to clear all doubts, so they should conditionally ordain everyone from the NO.  The reason they can’t be certain is because the priests ordination depends on 3 things, 1-2 of which (bishop’s Old-rite status and the bishop’s intention) are outside the knowledge of the NO priest.  

The sspx is simply investigating 1-2 of the 3 doubts (they can NEVER be sure of the bishop’s intention) and making a decision.  This lack of being able to investigate all 3 doubts necessitates a conditional ordination, in my opinion.  

You can’t say “Well, only 1 of 3 doubts remains.  That’s good enough for us.”  No way that’s good enough.  
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2019, 02:08:39 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 05, 2019, 01:37:19 PM
Obviously, yes.  But my point is, the sspx can NEVER do an investigation which is thorough enough to clear all doubts, so they should conditionally ordain everyone from the NO.  The reason they can’t be certain is because the priests ordination depends on 3 things, 1-2 of which (bishop’s Old-rite status and the bishop’s intention) are outside the knowledge of the NO priest.  

The sspx is simply investigating 1-2 of the 3 doubts (they can NEVER be sure of the bishop’s intention) and making a decision.  This lack of being able to investigate all 3 doubts necessitates a conditional ordination, in my opinion.  

You can’t say “Well, only 1 of 3 doubts remains.  That’s good enough for us.”  No way that’s good enough.  
No one can automatically conditionally ordain everyone from the NO, because there is doubt, not certain invalidity. You have got to accept this.

You don't seem to care at all whether sacrilege might be committed, you seem to think that's just the price for peace of mind so to you, it would be worth it, but the Church most certainly does not think that way Pax, seems you're perfectly fine with gambling one of the things that Holy Mother made a sacrilege. For that, I do not understand you.

As the guy I spoke with said - "the SSPX do what they can", but if/when that does not suffice, then the only thing to do is your own investigation - which, as I said, is exactly what I would do if I was in that position.

And I do agree with you that the SSPX - or anyone for that matter - "can NEVER do an investigation which is thorough enough to clear all doubts", but when there is doubt, automatic conditional ordination is *not* the solution for the simple reason that it is not allowed by the Church. I mean all the SSPX can do is what they can do.

Being that, like the Church, they presume validity, then unless there was something already known, I doubt they even look into the bishop's validity, then again, for all we know, they do.
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Offline mcollier

Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2019, 02:46:27 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on January 05, 2019, 01:24:12 PM
I am happily ignorant of all things "Coptic / Syrian / Byzantine / Etc." Rites. I've never had any reason to even look into them.
Actually, I think this may be a critical question since the new rite of episcopal consecration is somewhat of a misnomer. It's not new. It's from the 3rd century Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus. 
It has been used and is currently used by the valid unbroken apostolic line of succession found in the Coptic and Western Syrian Rites (Maronite). 
As the SSPX article states, "The Church does not judge about the mind and intention in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it". 
I think the SSPX article sufficiently demonstrates that the new rite has valid form and matter...the question comes down to intention. 
If the intention is not the intention of the Church, then the Coptic and Western Syrian Rite's have a problem (which as I understand it, has never been held by the Church). 
So the earlier question cannot be just brushed aside. It's important to all of us in the Latin Rite seeking the truth re the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration. It is not just an issue concerning the Eastern Rites. 
In fact, it's possible to say this whole thread may now hinge on this question. I tend to favor Pax Vobis' initial line of reasoning, however, it is potentially running into a major problem here. Because if the Coptic and Western Syrian Rite's have a valid intention, and if intention is judged externally, then the SSPX position (on this particular topic notwithstanding other topics) may be correct after all. 
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Offline clarkaim

Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2019, 10:08:01 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on January 02, 2019, 03:02:10 PM
The SSPX do not and cannot "automatically" conditionally ordain (not "re-ordain") because like all sacraments, the sacrament of Holy Orders is presumed valid unless either proven otherwise, or such doubt warrants conditional ordination. They must be very careful because to conditionally ordain one who is already validly ordained is a sacrilege. That's just the way that works. If you ever get the chance, simply ask any SSPX priest about it, they will tell you that each case is investigated separately. I've asked quite a few SSPX priests over the last 30 years and they have all said this exact same thing.

Also consider that any priest who leaves the NO for tradition, their own validity is probably one of their own greatest, if not *the* greatest of all their concerns. They want to be sure themselves that they're really priests first and foremost. It would seem that every NO priest who leaves the NO for the SSPX would want to be conditionally ordained just to be sure - but that really is not the way that's supposed to work. The matter must be investigated on a case by case basis first.


AT BEST the only thing that could be determined by a so-called "investigation" would be intent.  You are left with a VERY POSITIVE doubt if they use the "new rite" as it is clearly, consciously, and intently DIFFERENT from what Pius XII declared in Sacramentum Ordinis ( was than not written by Guerard des Lauriers, his confessor and subsequent Thuc bishop?). so since you may have intent, you may have matter, you certainly have a doubt as to form.  I say conditionally ordain, as did AB lefvebre until he wavered on politics again (he was human after all, and CLEARLY NOT graced with infallibility, so ABL? who cares.  Pius the 12th spoke, as head of the Church, on ALL 7 SACRAMENTS.     ROMA LOCUTUS EX, CAUSA FINITIS EST.  why are we even still having this discussion?   Go away bad dream!!
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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2019, 10:11:22 PM »
Quote
Actually, I think this may be a critical question since the new rite of episcopal consecration is somewhat of a misnomer. It's not new. It's from the 3rd century Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus. 
I've never heard this.  In fact, what I've heard (and what was posted earlier in this thread) is that the new rites of consecration/ordination resemble the anglican rites, which were eventually deemed invalid.


Quote
It has been used and is currently used by the valid unbroken apostolic line of succession found in the Coptic and Western Syrian Rites (Maronite). 
As the SSPX article states, "The Church does not judge about the mind and intention in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it". 
I think the SSPX article sufficiently demonstrates that the new rite has valid form and matter...the question comes down to intention. 

The sspx is comparing apples-oranges because in the old rite the intention was made explicit in the language of the sacrament.  This is why the Church presumes that the sacraments are valid in the old rites - because the INTERNAL intention of the bishop/priest DOES NOT MATTER - since the intention is spelled out and made clear.

In the new rites, the intention is ambiguous, therefore, for it to be valid the bishop and priest MUST SUPPLY the INTERNAL intention (which is impossible to judge, investigate or know for certain).  In other words, the intention of the Church is not part of the prayers, it's only in the mind of the participants in the ceremony.  In other words, the "intention of the Church" is not outwardly expressed; but only inwardly.  How can anyone ever judge/investigate this?  You can't.


Quote
If the intention is not the intention of the Church, then the Coptic and Western Syrian Rite's have a problem (which as I understand it, has never been held by the Church). 
So the earlier question cannot be just brushed aside. It's important to all of us in the Latin Rite seeking the truth re the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration. It is not just an issue concerning the Eastern Rites. 
In fact, it's possible to say this whole thread may now hinge on this question. I tend to favor Pax Vobis' initial line of reasoning, however, it is potentially running into a major problem here. Because if the Coptic and Western Syrian Rite's have a valid intention, and if intention is judged externally, then the SSPX position (on this particular topic notwithstanding other topics) may be correct after all. 
I'd venture to guess that the Coptic/Syrian rites spell out the intention of the sacrament.  We know for certain that the new rites do not.  When someone says that the Coptic/Syrian rites are "similar" to the new rites, what do they mean?  It has a similar ceremony?  It has similar liturgical movements?  We'd have to do a side-by-side comparison of the 2 rites to see.  My bet is that the new rites aren't very similar, in essentials.
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