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Author Topic: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations  (Read 48298 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2019, 03:42:40 AM »
You're viewing this from an orthodox viewpoint, which assumes that the Church, as a system, is running normally.  But post V2, it is not orthodox and it is not running normally.  One has to assume the worst case in our V2 times.  If not, then let's assume the novus ordo is valid and all the sacraments are valid, there is no emergency situation, and the entire Traditionalist movement is not needed and schismatic.
This is not so, my orthodox viewpoint is based on the Church's teaching that it is a sacrilege to repeat the sacrament automatically, that is, without first investigating each and every situation individually. I have no illusions that the Church is in a crisis, certainly not running normally. That whole line of thinking is entirely off the rails Pax.

Because it's the NO we're talking about and the Rite was changed to a NO Rite, it means that all NO ordinations are doubtful, not invalid.

If / when the Church ever recovers from this crisis and makes the declaration that all NO ordinations were invalid, She would then need to declare that all NO priests need to be re-ordained according to the old rite, but until or unless that happens, no trad group can rightfully take it upon themselves to make that declaration.  

For all we know, once She recovers from this crisis, the Church may declare another cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio on all NO clergy and  defrock and excommunicate them all, ruling that they can never be priests at all rather than let them be re-ordained back into the fold to contaminate it again. Far as I'm concerned, that would serve them right, but here's you saying to re-ordain them so they can infiltrate the SSPX. See what I am getting at here?

Being doubtful means that some are valid - that's just reality. The Church made it a sacrilege to ordain twice - period. Being sacrilegious to re-ordain is part of tradition, and that is what condemns the idea of automatic re-ordinations.

It would actually be better that the SSPX simply not take any NO priests at all, rather than risk sacrilege by the automatic ordaining of even one NO priest whose first ordination was actually valid.

Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2019, 10:57:00 AM »
Ok. So I am favoring the line of argumentation Pax Vobis has laid out, but I do have at least one more question ?

Do the consecratory prayers of the Coptic Rite and Western Syrian Rite (Maronite) render their episcopal lines to the same level of doubt as the Novus Ordo line due to intention no longer being manifest/clear/explicit and thereby forcing one to refer to the intent of the minister in the internal forum? (Which is humanly impossible to do.)


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2019, 11:08:22 AM »
Stubborn,
You’re mixing up terms and situations.  If we agree that the new rites are DOUBTFUL, then that is why CONDITIONAL ordinations exist - for doubtful situations.  

If the future Church decides that the new rites are totally INVALID, then a re-ordination takes place, ....not a conditional one.  

To conditionally ordain is not the same thing as a re-ordination from scratch.  

I think we agree, we’re just getting confused with terms.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2019, 01:21:32 PM »
Stubborn,
You’re mixing up terms and situations.  If we agree that the new rites are DOUBTFUL, then that is why CONDITIONAL ordinations exist - for doubtful situations.  

If the future Church decides that the new rites are totally INVALID, then a re-ordination takes place, ....not a conditional one.  

To conditionally ordain is not the same thing as a re-ordination from scratch.  

I think we agree, we’re just getting confused with terms.
Yes, that's what I said, note:

"If / when the Church ever recovers from this crisis and makes the declaration that all NO ordinations were invalid, She would then need to declare that all NO priests need to be re-ordained according to the old rite..."


So I am not mixing anything up. The fact is, if they were to automatically do ordinations, it could only be due to the certainty of invalidity of the first ordinations, hence they would be re-ordaining, not ordaining conditionally.

Because there are doubts, automatic ordinations cannot happen, rather, because there are doubts, each case has got to be individually investigated, if doubt still remains after being investigated, then the priest gets conditional ordination. If they find the first ordination was certainly invalid, then the priest gets re-ordained. If they find the first ordination valid, then they can neither re or conditionally ordain.

If the first ordination is valid, but "just to be safe" they were to conditionally ordain anyway, then they commit a sacrilege. Sorry Pax, but that's always been and still is the teaching of the Church.






Offline Stubborn

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2019, 01:24:12 PM »
Ok. So I am favoring the line of argumentation Pax Vobis has laid out, but I do have at least one more question ?

Do the consecratory prayers of the Coptic Rite and Western Syrian Rite (Maronite) render their episcopal lines to the same level of doubt as the Novus Ordo line due to intention no longer being manifest/clear/explicit and thereby forcing one to refer to the intent of the minister in the internal forum? (Which is humanly impossible to do.)
I am happily ignorant of all things "Coptic / Syrian / Byzantine / Etc." Rites. I've never had any reason to even look into them.