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Author Topic: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations  (Read 48123 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2019, 04:01:29 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on January 04, 2019, 09:32:14 AM
As for me, if I were to ever find myself concerned about this situation, I would do my own indepth interview and investigation.

Either way, they cannot automatically conditionally ordain every NO defecting priest that shows up at their door, that's not allowed. The presumption *must* start out that the sacrament is valid, tis the rule of the Church. I can't imagine a Church teaching that teaches invalidity must be presumed initially.
Except they pick and choose what they will accept from New Rome.  
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Offline 2Vermont

Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2019, 04:03:30 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 04, 2019, 10:11:26 AM
You're viewing this from an orthodox viewpoint, which assumes that the Church, as a system, is running normally.  But post V2, it is not orthodox and it is not running normally.  One has to assume the worst case in our V2 times.  If not, then let's assume the novus ordo is valid and all the sacraments are valid, there is no emergency situation, and the entire Traditionalist movement is not needed and schismatic.

The Traditionalist movement exists ENTIRELY because we cannot be sure of the validity (and morality) of the new mass and sacraments.  This includes the bishops/priests.  So, yes, it is ABSOLUTELY allowed (in my opinion and in the opinion of many other current lay/cleric theologians) that we SHOULD assume the new orders are invalid.
Exactly.
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Offline Stanley N

Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2019, 09:38:41 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 04, 2019, 11:25:37 AM
https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/sspx-bp-tissier-reignites-debate-over-validity-of-novus-ordo-ordinations/msg516038/#msg516038
Bishop Tissier publically chastises the new rites just 2 years ago, yet the neo-sspx still assumes the new rites are valid?  That makes no sense, theologically speaking.  The only reason for the contradiction is due to politics...
Is it so difficult to grasp that a rite might be valid even though it express some doctrines less well than another rite? or that it implicitly contains heresies? Or that it even explicitly contains heresy? And yet is valid? 

I remember an apparently upstanding traditional parent trying to advise me to teach my kids that the NO was invalid, or otherwise they would have no reason not to go.  But that'a a silly argument. Some quasi-traditional groups have valid orders yet teach crazy nonsense - clearly there's a more fundamental reason to consider.

I avoid the NO because it endangers the faith. The sermons are iffy, and without even talking about abuses, the liturgy expresses doctrine weakly, and implicitly or explicitly has some heresies. 

I think we can all agree with that.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2019, 10:28:42 PM »
Quote
Is it so difficult to grasp that a rite might be valid even though it express some doctrines less well than another rite?
Now you're avoiding the point I made, which is that +Tissier has theological problems with the new rite, yet the new-sspx assumes it's valid, which is a contradiction.  You need to admit this is a contradiction on a theology basis and the (probable) explanation is that they want to be friendly with rome, for political reasons.

Yes, the new rites might be valid, they might not be.  This is the problem - doubt.  No one knows.  One cannot attend a mass by a doubtful priest without committing a grave sin because a catholic has a duty to attend valid sacraments and masses, per canon law, and also due to the 3rd commandment.

The old rites, however, have no doubts associated with them, so conditionally ordaining priests in them is the only prudent decision.  And attending masses said by VALID priests using VALID rites (i.e. TLM liturgy) is the only way to save your soul.  God will judge people on the effort they made to go to CERTAIN masses/sacraments.  Without a serious excuse, to go to doubtful services is wrong and a lukewarm offering to God.
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Offline Stanley N

Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2019, 12:36:26 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 04, 2019, 10:28:42 PM
Now you're avoiding the point I made, which is that +Tissier has theological problems with the new rite, yet the new-sspx assumes it's valid, which is a contradiction.  You need to admit this is a contradiction on a theology basis and the (probable) explanation is that they want to be friendly with rome, for political reasons.
No, I didn't avoid it, I thought I answered it.

I think we can safely say most trads have theological problems with the NO.

+Tisser talks about three things in the TLM ordination missing in the NO. After each he says, this is why we cannot accept the new rite. After talking about one of those things, he says that "we cannot accept this rigged new rite of ordination that raises doubts on the validity of numerous ordinations in the new rite". (my translation)

Quote
Nous ne pouvons pas, évidemment, accepter ce nouveau rite d’ordination truqué qui fait peser des doutes sur la validité de nombreuses ordinations selon le nouveau rite.
http://laportelatine.org/mediatheque/sermonsecrits/tissier_160629_econe/tissier_160629_econe.php

He says "numerous" and not "all". This is not inconsistent with the view that the rite itself is valid, but instances could be invalid. Which is apparently what the SSPX actually thinks, since they presume the rite is valid and then investigate individual cases as the need arises.

But finally, this is just one line from a sermon, not a theological treatise. Even if he did disagree with the official stand, differences of opinion within the organization could be viewed as a sign of a healthy org.
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