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Author Topic: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations  (Read 48261 times)

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2019, 09:27:20 AM »
Since they’ve changed the words to all sacraments would I be right in thinking all baptized in the NO would be invalid? 


It was my understanding that intention to played into the validity of Sacraments. If the priest intentions are honestly to have turned the bread and water into the body, and blood of Our Lord. Do the words still render it an invalid consecration?

Online Stubborn

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2019, 09:32:14 AM »
And they also assume that the new rite of consecration is valid too.

Again, anyone who can read can see the problems with the changes to the new rite(s).  The only reason to assume they are valid is due to political reasons.  So their whole 'dog and pony' show about "investigating" these novus ordo priests is an outright lie!  Because if all they do is investigate the priest's intention, their investigate is meaningless!  They just want to calm the people, as they slowly introduce more and more novus ordo, liberalized priests into their ranks.

Add this to the list of '101 reasons why you should avoid the sspx'.
As for me, if I were to ever find myself concerned about this situation, I would do my own indepth interview and investigation.

Either way, they cannot automatically conditionally ordain every NO defecting priest that shows up at their door, that's not allowed. The presumption *must* start out that the sacrament is valid, tis the rule of the Church. I can't imagine a Church teaching that teaches invalidity must be presumed initially.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2019, 10:11:26 AM »
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Either way, they cannot automatically conditionally ordain every NO defecting priest that shows up at their door, that's not allowed. The presumption *must* start out that the sacrament is valid, tis the rule of the Church. I can't imagine a Church teaching that teaches invalidity must be presumed initially.
You're viewing this from an orthodox viewpoint, which assumes that the Church, as a system, is running normally.  But post V2, it is not orthodox and it is not running normally.  One has to assume the worst case in our V2 times.  If not, then let's assume the novus ordo is valid and all the sacraments are valid, there is no emergency situation, and the entire Traditionalist movement is not needed and schismatic. 

The Traditionalist movement exists ENTIRELY because we cannot be sure of the validity (and morality) of the new mass and sacraments.  This includes the bishops/priests.  So, yes, it is ABSOLUTELY allowed (in my opinion and in the opinion of many other current lay/cleric theologians) that we SHOULD assume the new orders are invalid.

Online Stubborn

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2019, 10:18:36 AM »
Since they’ve changed the words to all sacraments would I be right in thinking all baptized in the NO would be invalid?
No, that idea is altogether wrong.

Catholics should know what is needed for a valid baptism and that in an emergency, literally anyone is able to validly baptize, provided they use water, sprinkle it or pour it on the body, preferably the forehead, while at the same time saying the right words. If they were to see the wrong words or matter used, then they can say that *that* baptism was invalid and needs to be redone correctly.

Because the sacraments belong to Holy Mother the Church, all sacraments that are done in the conciliar church, which is to say that all sacraments that are done outside of the Church, are indeed automatically illicit, that is sinful, but not automatically invalid.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2019, 10:20:41 AM »
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Since they’ve changed the words to all sacraments would I be right in thinking all baptized in the NO would be invalid? 
No, baptism, marriage and (maybe) Confession are still ok.  The others are problematic.

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It was my understanding that intention played into the validity of Sacraments.
In the old rite, the intention of the priest was part of the prayers of the sacrament.  In the new rite, the intention is not specifically said in the prayers, so the priest has to have the proper intention/mentality.

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If the priest intentions are honestly to have turned the bread and water into the body, and blood of Our Lord. Do the words still render it an invalid consecration?
In a novus ordo mass, the priest HAS to supply the intention because the words have been changed into a narrative so that the priest is not speaking in the "1st person" when he says the consecration.  Assuming he's a priest (which is a big assumption), if he has the proper intention, then the consecration would be valid.

However, even if he's a priest and even if the consecration is valid that doesn't mean the novus ordo is a complete Mass, nor does it mean it's a licit Mass, nor does it mean that it is moral and pleasing to God.  It would mean that communion would be available to the laity, but the "service" itself would be sinful.  Only God can make a judgement on who is/isn't guilty for attending this service, since it's a fake mass, and you can't commit a sin (i.e. go to a fake mass) in order to do a good (i.e. receive Our Lord in Holy Communion).  That's why it's best to avoid the novus ordo altogether.