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Author Topic: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations  (Read 48337 times)

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Online Stubborn

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2019, 04:18:36 PM »
Thank you all. I understand why its not a concern for many on CI. But for me, it's a big issue. Most of my family has not totally "bought in" to my views, so while they have attended the resistance chapel that I attend from time to time, they have comfortable going to the local diocesan Ecclesia Dei and/or FSSP.

The SSPX locally has a Novus Ordo priest, so for my family...practically speaking the FSSP is closer and is basically offering the same thing.
PM me the SSPX chapel location and priest's name, I will look it up and call them and ask for you if he's been conditionally ordained - and if not, why not. After you ask the same question a few times, it gets easier and easier to do.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2019, 04:25:11 PM »
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You cannot truthfully say they are positively invalid as if you actually know, because you don't actually know, because it is impossible to actually know that all NO sacraments are invalid.
No one can say they are postively invalid or positively valid.  This is the issue - doubt.

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But Pax, even a prot baptism cannot be said to be automatically invalid. Automatically illicit, yes. Automatically sinful, yes. Same goes for ordinations, even when done by schismatics. Also, defending the sacraments is not new, it is a Church tradition, a tradition that only the Church will forever remain faithful to.
If there is reason to doubt - and there is, since new-rome's new rites are systematically ambiguous - then conditional ordination is necessary.  One is not allowed to attend a doubtful mass or sacrament under pain of grave sin, per Canon Law.  Therefore, one is not allowed to attend a TLM by a doubtful priest, under pain of sin.

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PM me the SSPX chapel location and priest's name, I will look it up and call them and ask for you if he's been conditionally ordained - and if not, why not.
This is a very charitable thing for you to do, but it's the sspx's fault that you have to do so.  This information should be publically posted for all to see.  Every catholic should demand to know that their priests are valid - with 100% certainty.  The fact that the sspx is scared to question new-rome's sacraments is a symptom of their political games and their lukewarm defense of Tradition.


Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2019, 04:29:26 PM »
Maria Regina:

I hear you. The fruits have been rotten to the core.

However, that does not necessarily mean that the new rite of episcopal consecration is invalid. Does it?

Wouldn't the principle of "ex opere operato" come into play regardless of the personal holiness/lack thereof of the ministers of the sacraments? That is to say, as long as valid form, matter, and intention are present (which the article attempts to address one by one at least with regard to the version published by the Vatican)?

In addition, if the new rite wasn't valid per se, then wouldn't the Church be deprived of a hierarchy? And would that violate the promise of Mt 16:18? Or is that a misreading of MT 16:18?

Doesn't Our Lady of Fatima suggest that we will have an intact hierarchy as well?

So, therefore, since the new rite was promulgated nearly 51 years ago, aren't we somewhat forced to accept the validity by virtue of MT 16:18 or by Fatima?

If I am on the wrong track, feel free to blast this post right out of the water. I really don't know the answer and don't pretend to be an expert in any way. But I am interested in what others have to say on this subject.

Last question. I have been told that a layman can be elected pope. Ok, but isn't the pope also the bishop of Rome? So wouldn't he have to be consecrated around the same time he is coronated to assume the Chair of Peter? Since Pope Benedict XVI was consecrated in the new rite, would that cast his pontificate into doubt if the new rite were doubtful?

Thank you!
Isn't it coincidental that the SSPX changed their view on the NREC in 2005?  

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2019, 04:38:17 PM »
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Last question. I have been told that a layman can be elected pope. Ok, but isn't the pope also the bishop of Rome? So wouldn't he have to be consecrated around the same time he is coronated to assume the Chair of Peter? Since Pope Benedict XVI was consecrated in the new rite, would that cast his pontificate into doubt if the new rite were doubtful?

Based on what i've read, he'd still be pope, even if not a bishop.  The election would still be valid (in theory).

Re: SSPX official position re: validity of new rite of episcopal consecrations
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2019, 04:40:09 PM »
Based on what i've read, he'd still be pope, even if not a bishop.  The election would still be valid (in theory).
No, a man can be elected pope without Holy Orders, but he must be given full orders in order to be pope. Hence, "Bishop of Rome".