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Offline AlligatorDicax

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"Than" | "then"/Re: Spelling Challenge
« Reply #60 on: December 23, 2018, 08:31:58 PM »
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  • Where I come from these words ["than" vs. "then"]] sound distinctly different, so I am wondering:

    [I]s it general in U.S. English that they sound alike, or
    is it only that way in certain American accents or certain states, or
    is it just sloppy speech that sets the trap?

    My experience with U.S. English, being a native speaker who's lived in 2 other regions aside from the South of my birth, and listened for many years to the homogenized speech of mainstream network news (before cable-network access dominated t.v. viewing), causes me to expect U.S. native speakers of most regions to pronounce these words thus:
    • "than" using "a" with the same sound as in "man" (IPA "mæn"); and
    • "then" using "e" with the same sound as in "hen" (IPA "hen", later revised to "hɛn").

    The difference becomes less distinct when these words, which properly consist of 1 syllable, are drawled into 2 syllables, often separated by a consonantal ‘y’ sound:
    • "than" as something like "tha-n", using the same initial "a" sound as in the corresponding vowel above; and
    • "then" as something like "the-n", using the same initial "e" sound as in the corresponding vowels above.
    The final vowel drawled into each is nearly the schwa "ə", i.e., a short-e shortened so much that it can hardly be heard at all.

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    English ‘a ’/Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #61 on: December 23, 2018, 10:43:53 PM »
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  • Ask any English speaker how he pronounces the vowel “a”.  There are about seven or more correct answers, though I can’t think of them all right now. Consider the various “a” sounds here:

    What day 1 does Mary 2 plan 3 to eat 4 the awesome 5 avocado 6,7 ?

    I'd insert before the ‘?’: "outside the cathedral 8,9".

    In the early International Phonetic Alphabet, a French invention credited mostly to Paul Edouard Passy, the sounds italicized & numbered above would have been indicated, at an intermediate stage of development between the World Wars [*], by these distinct characters, in which no modifications to typographic style are allowed [†]:

    1: dei, exemplifying the English long-a, whose sound is signified in the Francocentric IPA by its "ei" diphthong (consider pronunciation of Latin "Dei" at various speeds).
    2: Mɛə ɹi (U+25B U+259; &#603 &#601).
    3: plæn (U+E6 &#230).
    4: t (‘i’ U+02D0; ‘i’ &#720: the IPA triangular colon, which the IPA uses instead of the familiar macron to signify the long pronumciation of a vowel, altho' common screen resolutions make it difficult to distinguish from the ordinary colon:’).
    5: ɔː sʌm (U+0254 U+02D0; &#596 &#720: where the letter apparently a turned-c is actually the vowel open-o) (also, altho' not under discussion, the short-uʌ’: U+028C &#652).
    6,7: ævocɑː do (U+E6 æ U+0251 U+02D0; &#593 &#720).
    8,9: cəθiːdrəl (both schwa: U+0259; &#601), as if an alternative English spelling were "c'thedr'l" (also, altho' not under discussion, the voiceless-th of theta: U+03B8 &#952, which Germanophiles & Celtophiles probably prefer to replace by their runic thornþ’, as assimilated into the Latin alphabet: U+FE &#254).

    And to provide further frustration among learners of English, the final ‘a’ in "avocado" is pronounced differently from the final ‘a’ in "avocation"; the latter uses the ‘a’ sound that in English is its long-a (i.e., the sound signified in the IPA by its diphthong "ei").

    -------
    Note *: Cassell's New Fr.-En. En.-Fr. Dictionary, (c)1930.  The International Phonetic Alphabet of the time, then often called "Passy's Alphabet", is listed with examples, on p. x--xi.  I verified the examples quoted above by referring to entries in its En.-Fr. section.  The IPA underwent later episodes of revision and update, e.g., 1993 and 1996 (respectively), and maybe even early in the 21st Century.

    Note †: No modifications in styles of IPA characters were allowed because the alphabet was implemented by low-tech methods such as turning or mutilating printers' movable types (e.g., ‘ɑ’ being produced by cutting the ascender off a ‘d’).  At the time of the reference work above, the distinct shape that might be called the crested-a, common in printing English (i.e., the ‘a’ in upright Arial or Helvetica, but not all other sans-serif fonts), was not used by the IPA to signify any sound of ‘a’ in English, but it was used for some sounds of ‘a’ in French.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #62 on: December 23, 2018, 11:19:00 PM »
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  • I appreciate your comments, Alligator. I would like to be more familiar than I am with those symbols which are used to depict sounds precisely.

    But you missed out on the first 'a' - the 'a' in 'what' which sounds like 'o' in cot. This is a general rule, or at least it is common, for 'a' after 'w'. Wander sounds like wonder, and wonder sounds like wunder! No wonder children have to spend much time and effort to learn a subject called Spelling.

    To my way of thinking 'a' in eat has no sound, but merely the function of making the 'e' long.

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    Re: English ‘a’/Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #63 on: December 24, 2018, 12:20:48 AM »
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  • I appreciate your comments, Alligator. [....] But you missed out on the first 'a' - the 'a' in 'what'

    Ooops!
    Could've been worse: I almost omitted the ‘a(y)’ in "day" before I posted.  This remedy is in a format comparable to mine above:

    What 0

    0: Hwɔ t (U+0254; &#596: the letter that's apparently a turned-c is actually the IPA vowel-character open-o).  Also, altho' not under discussion, the sound of English "wh" is phonetically considered to comprise the rough-breathing of "h" followed by "w" (consider the pronunciation of the word as a 1-word exclamation by a person who's angered by an unpleasant surprise).


    [...] which sounds like 'o' in cot.

    Indeed, its pronunciation is signified by the IPA as "kɔ t".

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #64 on: December 24, 2018, 12:51:24 AM »
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  • You might find this thoughtfully entertaining...

    An American homeschool curriculum provider has his own definition for what "spelling" is. See if you agree.

    He defines spelling as, “the correct retrieval of sequentially stored, virtually random bits of information.”
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #65 on: December 24, 2018, 12:52:19 AM »
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  • I'm sure a few people here can identify who that quote is from.
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #66 on: December 24, 2018, 02:27:31 AM »
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  • I'm trying to make sense of this:
    "Spelling is the correct retrieval of sequentially stored, virtually random bits of information" --Andrew Pudewa

    Never heard of Andrew Pudewa before today so I "ducked" your quote, Mater, and found his name, then I "ducked" his name and got:

    Andrew Pudewa is the director of the Institute for Excellence in Writing and a father of seven. Traveling and speaking around the world, he addresses issues related to teaching, writing, thinking, spelling, and music with clarity, insight, practical experience, and humor.
    https://www.iew.com/intro-iew/history-mission-people/founders-and-history/andrew-pudewa

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #67 on: December 24, 2018, 11:21:03 AM »
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  • Quote
    Fake Columbian Priest exposed

    Col-O-mbian  ;)
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline jvk

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #68 on: December 24, 2018, 04:03:19 PM »
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  • Too bad there's not some way to have a spelling bee on here!

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #69 on: December 24, 2018, 05:22:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    I'm sure a few people here can identify who that quote is from.
    Hmmm...

    I'm sure a few people here can identify whom that quote is from.
    Whom is the object of identify.
    .
    Oho! Never end a sentence with a preposition.  :fryingpan:
    Here's a challenge for you:

    Who can rewrite this sentence:
    Quote
    I'm sure a few people here can identify whom that quote is from.

    without ending the sentence with a preposition?




    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #70 on: December 24, 2018, 08:07:54 PM »
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  • Who can rewrite this sentence:

    I'm sure a few people here can identify who that quote is from.
    without ending the sentence with a preposition?
    "I'm sure a few people here can identify from whom is that quote."
    Is that satisfactory, Ma'am? 

    I would also consider using "from whom that quote is", as a number a Romamce languages end sentences with "to be/is".
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll


    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #71 on: December 24, 2018, 08:26:39 PM »
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  • This quote refers to a comment on the misspelling of the words, then and than, interchanging one for the other, which I have noticed appears frequently here. In this case I think it may have been simply a typo, and not a confusion about the proper spelling. But the comment is an interesting one, in that the implication is that than and then sound alike. I have even seen a claim on one of these (American) spelling websites that these words sound alike which, in my mind, I immediately rejected.

    Where I come from these words sound distinctly different, so I am wondering:

    is it general in U.S. English that they sound alike,
    or is it only that way in certain American accents or certain states,
    or is it just sloppy speech that sets the trap?
    I would personally say that young Americans, like myself, use them interchangeably and don't always make or note a distinction. For a while I didn't comprehend why Alligator would always change my "then" to "than" in sentences. Corrective changes have since been made. Part of this may actually be/is a lack of edyucashun in propr eenglish.
     Here in the South, if it's because of the drawl, I could understand one thinking these words sound similar. Also, some folks drawl more or less than others or don't at all.
      Some say I have some sort of accent, some say I dont have a "Texas" accent and others do. I've been mistaken for an outsider in my own town.  :laugh1:
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #72 on: December 25, 2018, 05:24:57 AM »
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  • "I'm sure a few people here can identify from whom is that quote."
    Is that satisfactory, Ma'am?

    I would also consider using "from whom that quote is", as a number a Romamce languages end sentences with "to be/is".
    That is fine by me, Student. I really could not think straight when I asked that question. Thank you!

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #73 on: December 25, 2018, 05:40:43 AM »
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  • Col-O-mbian  ;)
    Good catch, Cantarella! I would not have picked that up.
    .
    There are Columban missionary priests and there is a newspaper called The Columbian and Columbia pictures. But the country is Colombia.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Spelling Challenge
    « Reply #74 on: December 25, 2018, 08:47:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    Today for dinner I had two prosciuto, cheese, and pesto.

    should read:


    Quote
    Today for dinner I had two slices of prosciutto , cheese, and pesto.
    ... prosciutto is a whole leg cured in salt and air-dried over months to produce its trademark aroma and distinctive flavour. Ideally you need to cure a large, fat leg, as this means it will have more chance to air-dry properly. Small legs tend to dry too quickly. 

    https://www.sbs.com.au/food/recipes/prosciutto-0

     

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