Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Something we all need to remember...  (Read 569 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jamie

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 472
  • Reputation: +13/-1
  • Gender: Male
Something we all need to remember...
« on: January 20, 2010, 04:19:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "Always remember that gentleness and persuasion penetrate into the soul, while firmness and rigor cause only an external change.  Severity and direct opposition to people's evil dispositions serve merely to break them; it almost never leads to a cure.  Tolerate the evil for a long time, and if, at times, you think you ought not to suffer it any longer, suffer it still, and you will see in the end that you did the right thing...many people are lost through discouragement.  This is the universal evil especially among the devout.  Sustain and encourage and you will see that Our Lord will come to your assistance."  -- Venerable Francis Libermann (founder of the Congregation of the Sacred Heart, which later merged with the Congregation of the Holy Ghost - often referred to as the "Second Founder of the Holy Ghost Fathers" - the order from which Archbishop Lefebvre came. He was declared Venerable by Pope Pius IX in 1876.)


    Offline CM

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2726
    • Reputation: +1/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Something we all need to remember...
    « Reply #1 on: January 20, 2010, 04:30:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • And never dull down the truth for the sake of human respect.


    Offline Jamie

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 472
    • Reputation: +13/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Something we all need to remember...
    « Reply #2 on: January 20, 2010, 04:38:09 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: CM
    And never dull down the truth for the sake of human respect.


    Absolutely - and the Venerable Father Libermann didn't say to do so.  But sometimes we are a little quick to point out the truth (as harsh as it can sometimes be) when it is perhaps not appropriate.  It is one thing to deny the truth to not offend, and another to slowly introduce a person to the truth without scaring them away.

    There is a rather old adage that goes: "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar".  That is perfectly in line with what the Venerable Father is saying above.

    Is it better to blurt out the truth and lose a soul forever than to bide one's time and bring it to a person gently when the end result is more likely to be conversion and, consequently, salvation?

    Offline CM

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2726
    • Reputation: +1/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Something we all need to remember...
    « Reply #3 on: January 20, 2010, 04:53:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Oh so never tell a person they're anathema?  Even when the facts speak for themselves, when they show themselves to be anathema by their very words?

    Offline Jamie

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 472
    • Reputation: +13/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Something we all need to remember...
    « Reply #4 on: January 20, 2010, 05:04:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: CM
    Oh so never tell a person they're anathema?  Even when the facts speak for themselves, when they show themselves to be anathema by their very words?


    If someone speaks heresy to you, if you immediately reply "you are anathema!" do you think they will ask you to extrapolate and beg for your forgiveness, or do you think they will be turned off listening to you - you being perhaps the only person who may be the one to SLOWLY bring them to the truth through gentle coercion?


    Offline Jamie

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 472
    • Reputation: +13/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Something we all need to remember...
    « Reply #5 on: January 20, 2010, 05:07:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It might help for me to give an example:

    situation 1:

    Person A: I believe that everyone can go to heaven if they follow their conscience.
    Person B: You are a heretic!

    Situation 2:

    Person A: I believe that everyone can go to heaven if they follow their conscience.
    Person B: Did you know that Jesus said "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he shall not have eternal life in him"?  Do you think that this allows a person to follow their conscience and be saved even if they aren't born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

    Offline Raoul76

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4803
    • Reputation: +2007/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Something we all need to remember...
    « Reply #6 on: January 20, 2010, 05:23:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • CM can call me anathema and a heretic all he wants.  I don't take it personally nor will it stop me from listening to his point of view.  I'm no pansy.  I would seriously question anyone who is such a wuss that they can't abide the sterile bleating of a Feeneyite without storming off in a huff.  This is one of the perils of the times and not the worst of them.

    If it were the Pope saying that I was anathema, however -- a real Pope -- you'd better believe that it would be effective.  I'd say "Holy Father, what can I do to have this sentence lifted?  Please let me kiss the scabs on your feet for the next six months."

    Are you a Feeneyite Jamie?  Do you realize St. Thomas did not say those qualifying for baptism of desire are touched with water?  Yet you would say we MUST believe his throwaway comment that goods become "common property" in an emergency?  Okay -- you MUST believe that no water touches those who are baptized by desire.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline CM

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2726
    • Reputation: +1/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Something we all need to remember...
    « Reply #7 on: January 20, 2010, 05:51:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Situation 2 is the first thing we should try.  And when we do it agains and again and again, we have already gone beyond this:

    "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:  Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment."


    Offline Jamie

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 472
    • Reputation: +13/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Something we all need to remember...
    « Reply #8 on: January 20, 2010, 06:38:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: CM
    Situation 2 is the first thing we should try.  And when we do it agains and again and again, we have already gone beyond this:

    "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:  Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment."


    Please don't think for a minute that I don't believe there is a time and place to condemn - there certainly is - and I would be the first to erect the stake.  What I am hoping we might all get from the original comment is that sometimes our emotions prevent us from realising that we need to wait that one more day - to be patient just a little longer.  Here is a requote of what I initially posted:

    "Tolerate the evil for a long time, and if, at times, you think you ought not to suffer it any longer, suffer it still, and you will see in the end that you did the right thing."

    Offline Jamie

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 472
    • Reputation: +13/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Something we all need to remember...
    « Reply #9 on: January 20, 2010, 06:42:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Are you a Feeneyite Jamie?  Do you realize St. Thomas did not say those qualifying for baptism of desire are touched with water?  Yet you would say we MUST believe his throwaway comment that goods become "common property" in an emergency?  Okay -- you MUST believe that no water touches those who are baptized by desire.


    I am most certainly not a Feeneyite.  I believe that salvation comes through baptism and that if man can't provide it through the normal means, God will do so.

    St Thomas did not make a throw-away comment about goods becoming common property in an emergency- that is absolutely true as proven by reason and is in accord with nature.  St Thomas didn't make "throw-away" comments and he certainly didn't rely on the Holy Ghost making him "feel" he was right. He worked entirely from reason and revelation.  Sadly this is not the case for some on this site.

    Now, I have not read the entire Summa - God-willing I will through my life - but I wonder if you might quote the section where he says that a man can be baptised without water.  I do own a copy of the summa so even a reference to the right book and article will do.