Author Topic: Society of St. Pius X Regularization (Read 8302 times)

s2srea · « **on:** December 07, 2011, 04:54:34 PM »

I was reading an article and something sort of stood out at me. There was a question posed by the author, and it was the last question after a long line of questions regarding the regularization of the SSPX:

How will a “regularized” SSPX be guaranteed the ability to fight this counter-revolutionary battle unimpeded?

I think this is the ultimate question. Can the Society ever be guaranteed the ability to fight the counter revolutionary battle unimpeded? I thought about it, and I say 'no'. Its completely contrary to to the mission and birth of the Society. Otherwise, would +ABL not have fought from the inside? Have things actually gotten better since the inception of the the Newchurch? Nope.

Stubborn · « **Reply #1 on:** December 07, 2011, 05:10:37 PM »

Ya know, I hear the same thing i.e. SSPX should get regular etc so they can do battle from within. That's a crock.

What changes has the FSSP made from the inside? I have only been to one FSSP Mass like 5 or 6 years ago and yes, it was really good - but what efforts have been or are they making to abolish the Mass destroyer aka the NOM?

I'd like to compare statistics between FSSP and SSPX - not that it really matters I guess, but I'm guessing that vocations and growth have done better from without via the SSPX than from within via the FSSP - anyone have any stats?

Maybe FSSP is doing or makes attempts at actually doing something like trying to convert the "duped into" modernist clerics of the NO - but seems to me that would be shooting themselves right in the foot if they even tried.

SSPX needs to maintain doing what they do from where they're at now until Rome proves She wants to return to the faith.

s2srea · « **Reply #2 on:** December 07, 2011, 05:18:29 PM »

Agreed stubborn. Sometimes its easy to lose sight of the fact that its ROME who has left Tradition.

pax · « **Reply #3 on:** December 07, 2011, 06:09:09 PM »

I was not aware that the SSPX were considered to be "outside". My understanding has always been that they are indeed fighting for reform from within.

Santo Subito · « **Reply #4 on:** December 07, 2011, 07:30:35 PM »

As long as the Society holds the opinion that the NO Mass is evil and that it is a sin to attend, I'm not sure how they would reconcile with Rome.

At the very least they would need to disavow these positions and replace them with criticisms of the NO and their position that there TLM is a "better" Mass in its human elements.

Stubborn · « **Reply #5 on:** December 07, 2011, 07:58:39 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

As long as the Society holds the opinion that the NO Mass is evil and that it is a sin to attend, I'm not sure how they would reconcile with Rome.

At the very least they would need to disavow these positions and replace them with criticisms of the NO and their position that there TLM is a "better" Mass in its human elements.

What?

It's not an opinion that the NO service is a parody of the True Mass - how can anyone disavow of that honestly?

The NO is anti-tradition and nearly was successful in wiping out the Holy Sacrifice, the true faith and all things traditional over the entire world - and the NO still hates the traditional faith (though after 45 years of indifferentism, the modernist crooks will tolerate some tradition on occasion - just don't let it get out of hand!) - what place does the SSPX have with the NO?

No. It is Rome that must come to Her senses, not the other way around.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #6 on:** December 07, 2011, 08:56:17 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

As long as the Society holds the opinion that the NO Mass is evil and that it is a sin to attend, I'm not sure how they would reconcile with Rome.

At the very least they would need to disavow these positions and replace them with criticisms of the NO and their position that there TLM is a "better" Mass in its human elements.

So, they should compromise their Faith just to reconcile with people who left Tradition? That is just dumb reasoning. The fact is that the Traditional Latin Mass is the true Mass of the Catholic Church. The Bogus Ordo can never measure up to it.

Quote from: pax

I was not aware that the SSPX were considered to be "outside". My understanding has always been that they are indeed fighting for reform from within.

Well, the word "schismatic" gets thrown at them alot since they don't accept Vatican II or the NO. Benedict lifted their "excommunications" in 2009 yet some of the modernists still say they are excommunicated. Apparently they haven't been paying attention.

Vladimir · « **Reply #7 on:** December 08, 2011, 10:56:05 PM »

Well how exactly can one fight a battle against Modernism and the Novus Ordo establishment other than by bringing souls to Tradition and to the Fulness of the Catholic Faith?

If the FSSP priests are validly ordained Catholic priests (since this is not the "Crisis" section, let us refrain from debating this point) then that is exactly what they do. While one may argue that Rome is just offering tradition a "side altar" in the abomination of desolation, it is undeniable that many souls would have never even heard of the Latin Mass were it not for the installation of a FSSP apostolate or a FSSP mass being said in a local church.

Because it is on regular terms with the Ordinary, the FSSP receives much more advertistement than the SSPX. For example, never have I heard a non-Catholic mention the SSPX chapel in my diocese - however, on one occasion I spoke with several that knew of the local FSSP parish (it also helps that this parish, due to it's excellent schola was featured on the front page of the Local section in the Sacramento Bee). Every year the parish leads a May Procession through town and offers a Solemn High Mass at the Cathedral (for the past two years anyhow - they are trying to start a tradition) - undoubtedly, this exposes countless souls to tradition. A great majority of the people that attend the procession don't stay for the mass, of those that do, many are confused and even irrerevent, but there is always a chance that seeds of conversion may be planted in 1 soul.

While many FSSP priests may not "denounce" the Novus Ordo from the pulpit, they can work in other ways to convert souls to tradition. The most obvious way is by offering an alternative to the banal New Sacraments. FSSP priests give solid guidance in the Confessional and in their sermons (which can be heard on Audio Sancto - these are typical of the sermons i have heard at the FSSP). The bookstore at my parish sells many Angelus Press books, expositions of the New Religion, and even the biography of Msgr. Lefebvre. The storekeeper refuses to carry Theology of the Body, etc - true, there may be post-Vatican II books sold (none heretical or sentimental) and true, they may have a bit of the "JP2 fever", but I doubt that there is another place in the entire diocese where you can buy the Syllabus of Errors or Pascendi, etc.

As to vocations, the FSSP seminary is flourishing to the extent that they need to expand their building. I've heard from a priest recently ordained that there were seminarians there that had only been to the latin mass once or not even at all, but were so convinced of the verity of tradition that they refused to seek priestly discernment elsewhere.

Whether or not this is significant...

Stubborn · « **Reply #8 on:** December 09, 2011, 05:57:42 AM »

Quote from: Vladimir

Well how exactly can one fight a battle against Modernism and the Novus Ordo establishment other than by bringing souls to Tradition and to the Fulness of the Catholic Faith?

If the FSSP priests are validly ordained Catholic priests (since this is not the "Crisis" section, let us refrain from debating this point) then that is exactly what they do. While one may argue that Rome is just offering tradition a "side altar" in the abomination of desolation, it is undeniable that many souls would have never even heard of the Latin Mass were it not for the installation of a FSSP apostolate or a FSSP mass being said in a local church.

Yes, I agree that the FSSP does good things etc within their own society - that is not the issue.

The issue is folks wanting SSPX to be regularized for the sake of fixing this crisis from within. Some what them to be regularized for no other reason than for the sake of being regularized.

The FSSP has been within the diocesan structure for +20 years, yet beyond their own society, they have accomplished absolutely nothing to fix the crisis "from within" - so what is it that drives folks to believe that the SSPX would be able to do what in +20 years the FSSP is incapable of doing?

Many believe the FSSP is somehow superior to the SSPX - and if that's the case then getting the SSPX regularized for the sake of repairing the Church is that much more ridiculous.

Nope, no need to be regularized to the NO and it's proven track record of being anti-tradition until the NO is either gone or genuine steps are proven to have been taken to get rid of it, and proof that the restoration of the true faith is the primary concern of Rome. Until then, it's just more compromise, which ultimately only adds to confusion and supports NO Rome's indifferentism.

s2srea · « **Reply #9 on:** December 09, 2011, 10:22:30 AM »

Quote

The FSSP has been within the diocesan structure for +20 years, yet beyond their own society, they have accomplished absolutely nothing to fix the crisis "from within" - so what is it that drives folks to believe that the SSPX would be able to do what in +20 years the FSSP is incapable of doing?

Wow- excellent point Stubborn.

With all due respect Vladimir, I think your point is weak on the FSSP receiving 'face time', (was it?) from the NO. What is the point of obtaining recognition, when you must still submit (as a priest) in writing, a letter affirming that the NO is just as good as the TLM? You actually have to sign a docuмent stating such, did you know this?

**Vladimir:
"...it is undeniable that many souls would have never even heard of the Latin Mass were it not for the installation of a FSSP apostolate or a FSSP mass being said in a local church."

Dont forget, if it weren't for the SSPX, there wouldn't even be an FSSP. All those priests would saying TLM via the FSSP, would not exist! They were established, in my opinion, as a way to divert people from truly standing up to Tradition.

jman123 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 09, 2011, 01:46:21 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

Well how exactly can one fight a battle against Modernism and the Novus Ordo establishment other than by bringing souls to Tradition and to the Fulness of the Catholic Faith?

If the FSSP priests are validly ordained Catholic priests (since this is not the "Crisis" section, let us refrain from debating this point) then that is exactly what they do. While one may argue that Rome is just offering tradition a "side altar" in the abomination of desolation, it is undeniable that many souls would have never even heard of the Latin Mass were it not for the installation of a FSSP apostolate or a FSSP mass being said in a local church.

Because it is on regular terms with the Ordinary, the FSSP receives much more advertistement than the SSPX. For example, never have I heard a non-Catholic mention the SSPX chapel in my diocese - however, on one occasion I spoke with several that knew of the local FSSP parish (it also helps that this parish, due to it's excellent schola was featured on the front page of the Local section in the Sacramento Bee). Every year the parish leads a May Procession through town and offers a Solemn High Mass at the Cathedral (for the past two years anyhow - they are trying to start a tradition) - undoubtedly, this exposes countless souls to tradition. A great majority of the people that attend the procession don't stay for the mass, of those that do, many are confused and even irrerevent, but there is always a chance that seeds of conversion may be planted in 1 soul.

While many FSSP priests may not "denounce" the Novus Ordo from the pulpit, they can work in other ways to convert souls to tradition. The most obvious way is by offering an alternative to the banal New Sacraments. FSSP priests give solid guidance in the Confessional and in their sermons (which can be heard on Audio Sancto - these are typical of the sermons i have heard at the FSSP). The bookstore at my parish sells many Angelus Press books, expositions of the New Religion, and even the biography of Msgr. Lefebvre. The storekeeper refuses to carry Theology of the Body, etc - true, there may be post-Vatican II books sold (none heretical or sentimental) and true, they may have a bit of the "JP2 fever", but I doubt that there is another place in the entire diocese where you can buy the Syllabus of Errors or Pascendi, etc.

As to vocations, the FSSP seminary is flourishing to the extent that they need to expand their building. I've heard from a priest recently ordained that there were seminarians there that had only been to the latin mass once or not even at all, but were so convinced of the verity of tradition that they refused to seek priestly discernment elsewhere.

Whether or not this is significant...

Most of the priests of the FSSP that I know are not against the SSPX. An FSSP chapel near me has the Angelus Press Roman Hymnal on each pew , with Bp Williamson's preface to boot!!!

yes they can't directly attack the NOM they do it indirectly by criticizing the abuses like communion in the hand. overall there is some interchange among parisioners with the nearby SSPX chapel. I have seen people who go to the FSSP chapel occasionally go to the SSPX chapel and vice versa.

Vladimir · « **Reply #11 on:** December 09, 2011, 07:18:52 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

With all due respect Vladimir, I think your point is weak on the FSSP receiving 'face time', (was it?) from the NO. What is the point of obtaining recognition, when you must still submit (as a priest) in writing, a letter affirming that the NO is just as good as the TLM? You actually have to sign a docuмent stating such, did you know this?

I wasn't aware of that. Thank you.

I'm not arguing "for" or "against" the FSSP. Someone posed a question asking how the FSSP is "fighting". What do you mean what is the point of "receiving recognition"? My point is not that they receive advertisement (which is probably few and far in between anyhow), but that they provide an alternative to the Novus Ordo sacraments, since this is not the Crisis sub-section we must assume the validity of their orders. This may not be objectively best, but there are times that one cannot do what is objectively best. The missionary activities of the Church in the Far Orient are full of examples of this principle.

Quote

**Vladimir:
"...it is undeniable that many souls would have never even heard of the Latin Mass were it not for the installation of a FSSP apostolate or a FSSP mass being said in a local church."

Dont forget, if it weren't for the SSPX, there wouldn't even be an FSSP. All those priests would saying TLM via the FSSP, would not exist! They were established, in my opinion, as a way to divert people from truly standing up to Tradition.

Once again, I'm not defending or condemning the FSSP. I think that the FSSP serves as a stepping stone to tradition, not away from it. That's how it was in my case at least, as without the FSSP parish in my city I would have never found out about tradition.

Nishant · « **Reply #12 on:** December 09, 2011, 07:48:22 PM »

Well, as for statistics, Wiki says that the SSPX has 510 priests and 200 seminarians in about 40 years of its existence, while the FSSP has 228 priests and 154 seminarians in about 20 years.

I for one think a full official regularization of the SSPX during the present discussions is unlikely, and that will only come about, after Catholic priests begin to preach not on social justice but on the four last things, not on ecuмenism but begin to evangelize, not on religious liberty, but on the duty of all to embrace the true Faith, not on our gathering together in community, but of our participation in the eternal Sacrifice, and of all the other dogmas of the Faith that the Church has always held and holds even to this day.

And all of this, the FSSP, the ICK and other traditional institutitions do and see no contradiction in doing, while being in filial obedience to the Magisterium. No new dogma has at all been defined in the Church since Pope Pius XII pronounced infallibly on the Assumption of Our Lady into heaven, nothing at all that binds Catholics, except repetitions of what the Church has always believed.

I do think there have been many abuses in the celebration of the Holy Mass, which offend God and scandalize the faithful, and it is that, like it was with Indulgences once upon a time, that leads so many to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I think a just theological criticism of some aspects of the 1970 Missal is both permissible and sometimes even necessary, but once the Magisterium has settled the question, to me, it is not lawful to doubt, so far as validity is concerned, not because of who is sitting in it, but because of whose seat it is, as Christ said of the Pharisees who sat in Moses seat.

Emerentiana · « **Reply #13 on:** December 09, 2011, 08:21:12 PM »

Quote

I'm not arguing "for" or "against" the FSSP. Someone posed a question asking how the FSSP is "fighting". What do you mean what is the point of "receiving recognition"? My point is not that they receive advertisement (which is probably few and far in between anyhow), but that they provide an alternative to the Novus Ordo sacraments, since this is not the Crisis sub-section we must assume the validity of their orders. This may not be objectively best, but there are times that one cannot do what is objectively best. The missionary activities of the Church in the Far Orient are full of examples of this principle.

[

The FFSP is not an alternative at all.
What you have in that Org is a group of invalid priests saying the Tridentine Mass.
If these priests are ordained with the New Rite after 1968, they do not have the power to consecrate bread and wine.
This is the biggest smokescreen Org of all!

Sigismund · « **Reply #14 on:** December 10, 2011, 09:22:17 AM »

Well, yes, IF you think their priests are invalid. The vast majority of Catholics in the world don't think this.