Author Topic: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"? (Read 7205 times)

Merry · « **on:** February 17, 2018, 03:05:41 PM »

"Once a Catholic, always a Catholic." Not so?

Stubborn · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2018, 03:52:14 PM »

It's all about sedeism. You see, far as the sedes are concerned, the conciliar popes are not Catholic because the sedes have passed their judgement upon the popes as being heretics. It is true that heretics are not Catholics, the sedes apply this truth to the conciliar popes as if they are authorized to do this. It is with that authority that the conciliar popes are non-Catholics therefore cannot be popes.

So to say "once a Catholic always a Catholic" contradicts that aspect of sedeism - and that's what's wrong with the term.

Luke3 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2018, 04:02:18 PM »

Quote from: Merry on February 17, 2018, 03:05:41 PM

"Once a Catholic, always a Catholic." Not so?

Once a Catholic, always a Catholic is Once saved, always saved? Its protestant lies. A man can become Catholic and thereafter loose his soul.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896: The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.

Colossians 1:21-23 And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister.

1 Timothy 2;15 Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

2 John 1:8-9 Look to yourselves, that you lose not the things which you have wrought: but that you may receive a full reward. Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son.

Merry · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2018, 04:06:45 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on February 17, 2018, 03:52:14 PM

It's all about sedeism. You see, far as the sedes are concerned, the conciliar popes are not Catholic because the sedes have passed their judgement upon the popes as being heretics. It is true that heretics are not Catholics, the sedes apply this truth to the conciliar popes as if they are authorized to do this, as such, the conciliar popes could not be popes because non-Catholics cannot be pope.

So to say "once a Catholic always a Catholic" contradicts that aspect of sedeism - and that's what's wrong with the term.

Ohhhh - Ok! I thought there was perhaps a sniff of a sede twist that must be involved with COMPLICATING the thing!

So, according to the sede (or other) experts, it DOESN'T mean that once you are baptized as a Catholic you are still a Catholic of some type: a Catholic in the state of grace, a Catholic in mortal sin, a Catholic fallen into heresy, a Catholic fallen into schism, infidelity, etc. - you are "fallen away" or "not practicing" - but you don't go "get baptized" again in order to become Catholic again?

Most normal Catholics understand "once a Catholic, always a Catholic. You are baptized a Catholic - you are "in." You don't get re-baptized to come back in. You are in that sense, always a Catholic.

Sedevacantism = anarchy.

Luke3 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2018, 04:49:53 PM »

Quote from: Merry on February 17, 2018, 04:06:45 PM

Ohhhh - Ok! I thought there was perhaps a sniff of a sede twist that must be involved with COMPLICATING the thing!

So, according to the sede (or other) experts, it DOESN'T mean that once you are baptized as a Catholic you are still a Catholic of some type: a Catholic in the state of grace, a Catholic in mortal sin, a Catholic fallen into heresy, a Catholic fallen into schism, infidelity, etc. - you are "fallen away" or "not practicing" - but you don't go "get baptized" again in order to become Catholic again?

Most normal Catholics understand "once a Catholic, always a Catholic. You are baptized a Catholic - you are "in." You don't get re-baptized to come back in. You are in that sense, always a Catholic.

Sedevacantism = anarchy.

Merry's quote. you are "in."

You seem to be in opposition to the Catholic church, those who depart from the faith are not Catholic, hence the name apostate, heretic. Here it is one more time.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896: The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.

Pope St. Celestine I, Council of Ephesus, 431: ... ALL HERETICS corrupt the true expressions of the Holy Spirit with their own evil minds and they draw down on their own heads an inextinguishable flame.

Canon 2314, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “All apostates from the Christian faith and each and every heretic or schismatic: 1) Incur ipso facto [by that very fact] excommunication...”

Titus 3:10-11 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment. [ipso facto]

You problem is not with me, its with the Catholic church!

Nadir · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2018, 05:11:18 PM »

Quote from: Luke3 on February 17, 2018, 04:02:18 PM

Once a Catholic, always a Catholic is Once saved, always saved? Its protestant lies. A man can become Catholic and thereafter loose his soul.

Do equate Catholic with saved? You seem to be implying that Catholic is saved in a similar way to protestants. I don't think anyone here believes that to be Catholic is to be saved. The Catholic St Paul told his Catholic brethren "Work out your salvation is fear and trembling." He didn't believe that to be Catholic is to be saved.
The saying is true in the sense that Baptism cannot be undone. It a permanent mark on our souls. That mark cannot be erased. I am sure that there are many Catholics who are not saved and who are confined to hell for eternity. They are still Catholics - all the worse for them.

Merry · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2018, 05:53:38 PM »

Luke3 you are preaching to the choir here. Nadir is right - just being a baptized Catholic is not enough. And to be born and stay outside the Church, i.e. not entering via baptism of water, is not enough.

Are you a sede? They have Theology Freestyle in spades.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2018, 06:25:49 PM »

There's some (tiny bit of) truth to it, but it's misused by R&R types like Father Wathen and Stubborn.

In one sense, once someone has been baptized a Catholic and come into subjection to the Pope, that relationship remains. That's why, for instance, those who were baptized Catholic, even if raised Protestant, cannot validly marry outside the Church ... because the Church retains this jurisdiction over them.

But it's patently false to say that a Catholic can never lose membership in the Church. There's no Pope, no Church Father, no Doctor, and no approved Catholic theologians who has ever taught that one cannot leave the Church, lose membership in the Church, and go from inside the Church to outside the Church. That is a novelty invented by Father Wathen to explain R&R ... and Stubborn has been pushing this nonsense around here for a long time.

Now, if one wanted to argue that the Baptismal character alone suffices to hold office in the Church, even without profession of the true faith and subjection to the Holy Father, then one could try to make that case. But "once Catholic always Catholic" is ridiculous.

Luke3 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2018, 08:18:18 PM »

Quote from: Nadir on February 17, 2018, 05:11:18 PM

Do equate Catholic with saved? You seem to be implying that Catholic is saved in a similar way to protestants. I don't think anyone here believes that to be Catholic is to be saved. The Catholic St Paul told his Catholic brethren "Work out your salvation is fear and trembling." He didn't believe that to be Catholic is to be saved.
The saying is true in the sense that Baptism cannot be undone. It a permanent mark on our souls. That mark cannot be erased. I am sure that there are many Catholics who are not saved and who are confined to hell for eternity. They are still Catholics - all the worse for them.

No, not true. In order to be called Catholic, one must be a member. One who has apostatize from the Catholic Faith, is outside the Catholic church and not a member.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896: “So, with every reason for doubting removed, can it be lawful for anyone to reject any of those truths without thereby sending himself headlong into open heresy? without thereby separating himself from the Church and in one sweeping act repudiating the entirety of Christian doctrine?… he who dissents in even one point from divinely received truths has most truly cast off the faith completely, since he refuses to revere God as the supreme truth and proper motive of faith.”

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.

If you have issue with this, it is not with me, but the Catholic church.

"I don't think anyone here believes that to be Catholic is to be saved. The Catholic St Paul told his Catholic brethren "Work out your salvation is fear and trembling." He didn't believe that to be Catholic is to be saved."

The Catholic faith is the one true faith, therefore, to be Catholic and continue to the end, then you are most certainly saved. St. Paul says so.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son; much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Pope Benedict XIV, cuм Religiosi (# 4): ... confessors should perform this part of their duty whenever anyone stands at their tribunal who does not know what he must by necessity of means know to be saved...

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Miseremini · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2018, 09:13:26 PM »

But at their judgement will they be judged as having been Catholic?

Luke3 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2018, 09:39:22 PM »

Quote from: Miseremini on February 17, 2018, 09:13:26 PM

But at their judgement will they be judged as having been Catholic?

If they are not reconciled, and die as an apostate, No, they will not be judged as having been Catholic.

… he who dissents in even one point from divinely received truths has most truly cast off the faith completely, ...

2Vermont · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2018, 07:07:33 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on February 17, 2018, 06:25:49 PM

There's some (tiny bit of) truth to it, but it's misused by R&R types like Father Wathen and Stubborn.

In one sense, once someone has been baptized a Catholic and come into subjection to the Pope, that relationship remains. That's why, for instance, those who were baptized Catholic, even if raised Protestant, cannot validly marry outside the Church ... because the Church retains this jurisdiction over them.

But it's patently false to say that a Catholic can never lose membership in the Church. There's no Pope, no Church Father, no Doctor, and no approved Catholic theologians who has ever taught that one cannot leave the Church, lose membership in the Church, and go from inside the Church to outside the Church. That is a novelty invented by Father Wathen to explain R&R ... and Stubborn has been pushing this nonsense around here for a long time.

Now, if one wanted to argue that the Baptismal character alone suffices to hold office in the Church, even without profession of the true faith and subjection to the Holy Father, then one could try to make that case. But "once Catholic always Catholic" is ridiculous.

Thank you Lad. I was hoping you would post because I knew you would have the correct response to this. I have actually seen "conservative" Novus Ordites use this phrase when speaking with former Catholics gone Protestant to try to show them that they really haven't left the Church. Unfortunately, they are wrong and send the absolutely wrong message.

Stubborn · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2018, 11:09:40 AM »

Quote from: An even Seven on February 18, 2018, 08:20:40 AM

Merry,
You asked me this in the other thread:
I don't think Wathen was a hero Priest. Yes, he was great on the BOD issue, but his OCAC doctrine keeps countless people attached to the wretched anti-Catholic V2 sect (yes, anybody who believes Francis is a legit pope is attached to the V2 sect).

Yes, Baptism puts an indelible mark on the soul and makes one a Catholic but the OCAC doctrine is instantly destroyed by one quote from Pope Pius XII.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis: "For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy."

If that quote is not authoritative enough for some then this one is Ex Cathedra.

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino: "It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock"

Heretics and Schismatics were definitely once Catholics and are infallibly no longer Catholic.

You keep quoting these teachings which do not say what you say they say.

The first quote is saying that all sins sever a man from the Body of the Church, but due to their nature, none sever as fully as heresy or apostasy. He is saying that heresy and apostasy are the worst sins that exist.

The second quote is saying those who die as heretics and schismatics will go to hell, but that's the same fate as everyone who most certainly will go to hell who sever themselves from the Church through mortal sin. Those who die as heretics and schismatics will end up in hell just as surly as those who die as adulterers, or thieves, or liars, or murderers etc,. They have all severed themselves through mortal sin, of which heresy and schism are the worst.

But you seem to keep quoting these teachings with a prot understanding, not that of the Catholic Church. If it were as you say, then except for pagans, jews, heretics and schismatics, all others who are living within the Catholic Church *will* be saved - this is the prot doctrine and teaches; "once saved always saved" - this is false and brings with it nothing but iniquity.

St. John Chrysostom is quoted as saying that "the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops", not "with the skulls of ex, or non, or anti bishops" - he said they were bishops, i.e. Catholic bishops and that there are so many Catholic bishops down there, that the floor of hell is paved with their skulls. He said it that way because THAT is how Catholics understand it.

We were taught that the lowest places in hell are occupied by Catholics who died in the state of mortal sin and they are easily identified by their indelible mark, their baptismal character, which to their everlasting shame and trophies to the devils, will unmistakably identify them as Catholics, children of God and heirs to heaven who threw away their inheritance, for all eternity.

Luke3 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2018, 12:03:08 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on February 17, 2018, 06:25:49 PM

There's some (tiny bit of) truth to it, but it's misused by R&R types like Father Wathen and Stubborn.

In one sense, once someone has been baptized a Catholic and come into subjection to the Pope, that relationship remains. That's why, for instance, those who were baptized Catholic, even if raised Protestant, cannot validly marry outside the Church ... because the Church retains this jurisdiction over them.

But it's patently false to say that a Catholic can never lose membership in the Church. There's no Pope, no Church Father, no Doctor, and no approved Catholic theologians who has ever taught that one cannot leave the Church, lose membership in the Church, and go from inside the Church to outside the Church. That is a novelty invented by Father Wathen to explain R&R ... and Stubborn has been pushing this nonsense around here for a long time.

Now, if one wanted to argue that the Baptismal character alone suffices to hold office in the Church, even without profession of the true faith and subjection to the Holy Father, then one could try to make that case. But "once Catholic always Catholic" is ridiculous.

"In one sense, once someone has been baptized a Catholic and come into subjection to the Pope, that relationship remains. That's why, for instance, those who were baptized Catholic, even if raised Protestant, cannot validly marry outside the Church ... because the Church retains this jurisdiction over them."

According to Catholic teaching the relationship does not remain, after the age of reason has been attained. By the time the person, who is living in or raised as a protestant, they have been living a long time in the age of reason. It is incuмbent upon every man, who was baptized, to act upon the actual grace given by God to recognize the one true [Catholic] church and continue or reconcile, as a member, after the age of reason is attained. I say actual grace because once a child attains the age of reason, he or she, can lose his sanctification [sanctifying grace], especially in this age, with the absolute pollution on TV and every other media.

Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351: … We ask: In the first place whether you and the Church of the Armenians which is obedient to you, believe that all those who in baptism have received the same Catholic faith, and afterwards have withdrawn and will withdraw in the future from the communion of this same Roman Church, which one alone is Catholic, are schismatic and heretical, if they remain obstinately separated from the faith of this Roman Church. In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.

Pope Pius XI, Rerum omnium perturbationem (#4), Jan. 26, 1923: “The saint was no less a person that Francis de Sales… he seemed to have been sent especially by God to contend against the heresies begotten by the [Protestant] Reformation. It is in these heresies that we discover the beginnings of that apostasy of mankind from the Church, the sad and disastrous effects of which are deplored, even to the present hour, by every fair mind.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. I-II, Q. 103., A. 4: “All ceremonies are professions of faith, in which the interior worship of God consists. Now man can make profession of his inward faith, by deeds as well as by words: and in either profession, if he make a false declaration, he sins mortally.”

And so whether a baptized man or teenager, is in a protestant church or any other false church, they would be deemed an apostate.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. II, Q. 12, A. 1, Obj. 2: “… if anyone were to… worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate.”

Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis (# 2), April 15, 1905: “And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: ‘We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica Pt. II-II, Q. 2., A. 7.: “After grace had been revealed, both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ, chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above.”

Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica Pt. II-II, Q. 2., A. 8: “And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity.

It is important to remember, its all about the age of reason! And it is all about unity.

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos #9, Jan. 6, 1928: “Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love,who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment ‘Love one another,’ altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: ‘If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you’ (II John 10).”

John 15:6 If anyone abideth not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Sixthly, we offer to the envoys that compendious rule of the faith composed by most blessed Athanasius, which is as follows: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity. … But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man... This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. Decrees of the Ecuмenical Councils, Vol. 1, pp. 550-553; Denzinger 39-40.

Luke3 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2018, 12:46:00 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on February 18, 2018, 11:09:40 AM

You keep quoting these teachings which do not say what you say they say.

The first quote is saying that all sins sever a man from the Body of the Church, but due to their nature, none sever as fully as heresy or apostasy. He is saying that heresy and apostasy are the worst sins that exist.

The second quote is saying those who die as heretics and schismatics will go to hell, but that's the same fate as everyone who most certainly will go to hell who sever themselves from the Church through mortal sin. Those who die as heretics and schismatics will end up in hell just as surly as those who die as adulterers, or thieves, or liars, or murderers etc,. They have all severed themselves through mortal sin, of which heresy and schism are the worst.

But you seem to keep quoting these teachings with a prot understanding, not that of the Catholic Church. If it were as you say, then except for pagans, jews, heretics and schismatics, all others who are living within the Catholic Church *will* be saved - this is the prot doctrine and teaches; "once saved always saved" - this is false and brings with it nothing but iniquity.

St. John Chrysostom is quoted as saying that "the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops", not "with the skulls of ex, or non, or anti bishops" - he said they were bishops, i.e. Catholic bishops and that there are so many Catholic bishops down there, that the floor of hell is paved with their skulls. He said it that way because THAT is how Catholics understand it.

We were taught that the lowest places in hell are occupied by Catholics who died in the state of mortal sin and they are easily identified by their indelible mark, their baptismal character, which to their everlasting shame and trophies to the devils, will unmistakably identify them as Catholics, children of God and heirs to heaven who threw away their inheritance, for all eternity.

Stubborn, there is a distinction that you don't see. Yes, all those, who do such things, do go to hell. But there is a distinction, Catholics can commit mortal sins but they still retain the Catholic faith and inside the church. They have access to the sacraments for reconciliation. But apostates and heretics, lose the faith, when they depart from it. They are outside the Catholic church. That is the distinction, its clear. Pope Innocent III declares this to be so. Heretics and apostates have no unity with the church. Pope St. Celestine I declares it.

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.

Pope St. Celestine I, Council of Ephesus, 431:
“... ALL HERETICS corrupt the true expressions of the Holy Spirit with their own evil minds and they draw down on their own heads an inextinguishable flame.

Canon 2314, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “All apostates from the Christian faith and each and every heretic or schismatic: 1) Incur ipso facto [by that very fact] excommunication…”

Pope Pius VI, even says that it is erroneous to believe that an examination must take place for [ipso facto] excommunications.

Pope Pius VI, Auctorem fidei, Aug. 28, 1794
47. Likewise, the proposition which teaches that it is necessary, according to the natural and divine laws, for either excommunication or for suspension, that a personal examination should precede, and that, therefore, sentences called ‘ipso facto’ have no other force than that of a serious threat without any actual effect” – false, rash, pernicious, injurious to the power of the Church, erroneous.

Author Topic: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"? (Read 7205 times)

Merry

So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Stubborn

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Luke3

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Merry

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Luke3

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Nadir

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Merry

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Ladislaus

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Luke3

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Miseremini

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Luke3

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

2Vermont

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Stubborn

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Luke3

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Luke3

Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?