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Author Topic: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?  (Read 6110 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2018, 12:51:28 PM »
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  • But you seem to keep quoting these teachings with a prot understanding, not that of the Catholic Church.

    No approved authoritative Catholic source or author has EVER TAUGHT OCAC.  Period.  End of discussion.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #16 on: February 18, 2018, 12:58:22 PM »
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  • The first quote is saying that all sins sever a man from the Body of the Church, but due to their nature, none sever as fully as heresy or apostasy. He is saying that heresy and apostasy are the worst sins that exist.  

    Firstly, Stubborn, I congratulate you for finally embracing the Fentonian position that one can be within the Church without being a member of the Body.

    Secondly,  :laugh1:

    that teaching that only sins against the faith exclude someone from the Body of the Church just means that these are the "worst sins that exist".

    :laugh1:  :laugh1:  :laugh1: 

    This all goes back to the Tridentine ecclesiology (as most famously articulated by St. Robert Bellarmine) that those who do not profess the Catholic faith (e.g. heretics, infidels) and remain in subjection to the Pope (e.g. schismatics) are NOT members.  [and reception of the Sacraments is also required by the way].  Those who commit other sins (serial mass murder, fornication, adultery, theft, etc.) REMAIN MEMBERS, whereas a schismatic Orthodox is NOT a member.

    Every Catholic theologians since Trent knows that the Pope is speaking about here, but you just alleged that he doesn't mean what everyone else ever has understood him to mean.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #17 on: February 18, 2018, 01:10:19 PM »
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  • Just stop.  I have a lot of respect for Father Wathen, but he misfired on this one.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #18 on: February 18, 2018, 01:46:41 PM »
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  • So your attempt at a refutation consists of saying that the words quoted mean the exact opposite of what they say? Interesting. Show in the quote where it says that "all sins sever a man from the Body of the Church".

    "For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy."

    He is saying that every sin severs a man from the Body of the Church, but due to their nature, none such as does schism (sedeism), or heresy or apostasy.


    You make him out to be saying:

    "For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to severs a man from the Body of the Church, as does except for the sins of schism or heresy or apostasy."


    Then you say that I am the one to give opposite meaning to his teaching.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #19 on: February 18, 2018, 01:54:52 PM »
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  • Stubborn, there is a distinction that you don't see.  Yes, all those, who do such things, do go to hell.  But there is a distinction, Catholics can commit mortal sins but they still retain the Catholic faith and inside the church. They have access to the sacraments for reconciliation.  But apostates and heretics, lose the faith, when they depart from it.  They are outside the Catholic church.  That is the distinction, its clear.  Pope Innocent III declares this to be so.  Heretics and apostates have no unity with the church.  Pope St. Celestine I declares it.
    I see the distinction, Trent's catechism explains it wonderfully:

    "Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised."

    Heresy and schism are mortal sins and all anyone who severed themself from the Catholic faith and who fell into those sins, and who is guilty of those sins, and who wishes to be absolved of those sins and rejoin the faithful has to do, is to walk into the confessional and confess their sins to a priest. You know, the same things only Catholics can do.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Luke3

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #20 on: February 18, 2018, 02:40:15 PM »
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  • I see the distinction, Trent's catechism explains it wonderfully:

    "Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised."

    Heresy and schism are mortal sins and all anyone who severed themself from the Catholic faith and who fell into those sins, and who is guilty of those sins, and who wishes to be absolved of those sins and rejoin the faithful has to do, is to walk into the confessional and confess their sins to a priest. You know, the same things only Catholics can do.  

    No, that not true.  Heretics and apostates are excommunicated ipso facto, without further declaration.  They don't have access to the sacraments.  By the way Trent's catechism is not infallible.  It was completed long after the Council was closed.  Many catechisms have erroneous text in them.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #21 on: February 18, 2018, 02:59:48 PM »
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  • "For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy." 

    He is saying that every sin severs a man from the Body of the Church, but due to their nature, none such as does schism (sedeism), or heresy or apostasy.


    You make him out to be saying:

    "For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to severs a man from the Body of the Church, as does except for the sins of schism or heresy or apostasy."


    Then you say that I am the one to give opposite meaning to his teaching.
    I had to read this more than once to get the sense of it:

    "For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy." 

    Parenthesizing what is not essential to the sense of the sentence, 

    "For not every sin, (however grave it may be), is such as (of its own nature) to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as schism or heresy or apostasy does." 

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #22 on: February 18, 2018, 03:17:34 PM »
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  • You're still not right. You continue to interpret this quote with the exact opposite meaning of the words, contrary to every Catholic who has ever spoken on this topic besides the Wathen/Stubbornites.
    The nature of other sins, committed by Catholics, do not sever one from the Church. Schism, Heresy and Apostasy do. I don't know if you are doing this on purpose but I do know we have this argument every once in a while and you always interpret this wrong. Malice must be presumed because the words couldn't be any clearer and your explanation couldn't be more wrong; since it is the exact opposite of the words of Mystici Corporis.
    Well, I don't necessarily presume malice directly, I presume you interpreting it wrong either to adhere like gorilla glue to your sedeism, or because you adhere like gorilla glue to your sedeism - it's my opinion to be latter.

    It is true that the nature of other sins do not sever from the Church like schism, heresy or apostasy, but what you fail to accept is that other sins do in fact, as Pope Pius XII said, sever us from the Church.

    The adulterer can no longer receive absolution even though he may want it with all his heart, because he has severed himself from the Church with his adultery. St. Paul tells us that adulterers must not even be named among us Catholics.

    The only way an adulterer can hope for forgiveness is to first abandon his adulterous life. The difference between him and the heretic/apostate/schismatic is their sin - or perhaps more properly said, the nature of their sin, of which I presume needs no further explanation.

    As Pope Pius XII alluded to, both sins sever, but it is the nature of the sins that determine the gravity, hence the chances of the person wanting to seek forgiveness. No other sins severs one from the Church as does heresy/schism (sedeism)/apostasy, hence no other sin keeps one from seeking forgiveness as heresy/schism (sedeism)/apostasy. This is the meaning of Pope Pius XII's quote.
       
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #23 on: February 18, 2018, 03:25:52 PM »
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  • No, that not true.  Heretics and apostates are excommunicated ipso facto, without further declaration.  They don't have access to the sacraments.  By the way Trent's catechism is not infallible.  It was completed long after the Council was closed.  Many catechisms have erroneous text in them.
    Yes, I am afraid it is true. Heretics are indeed excommunicated ipso facto, but the Church is here to save all sinners, not condemn them mercilessly. Read the Council of Trent, Session 14, Chapter 7: ".....it has always been very piously observed in the said Church of God, that there be no reservation at the point of death, and that therefore all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavor, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution."

    The difference between the penitential heretic and the army deserter is that the army will court marshal and condemn the deserter, whereas the Church is here to forgive him - if he seeks forgiveness. 


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Luke3

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #24 on: February 18, 2018, 03:33:12 PM »
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  • Well, I don't necessarily presume malice directly, I presume you interpreting it wrong either to adhere like gorilla glue to your sedeism, or because you adhere like gorilla glue to your sedeism - it's my opinion to be latter.

    It is true that the nature of other sins do not sever from the Church like schism, heresy or apostasy, but what you fail to accept is that other sins do in fact, as Pope Pius XII said, sever us from the Church.

    The adulterer can no longer receive absolution even though he may want it with all his heart, because he has severed himself from the Church with his adultery. St. Paul tells us that adulterers must not even be named among us Catholics.

    The only way an adulterer can hope for forgiveness is to first abandon his adulterous life. The difference between him and the heretic/apostate/schismatic is their sin - or perhaps more properly said, the nature of their sin, of which I presume needs no further explanation.

    As Pope Pius XII alluded to, both sins sever, but it is the nature of the sins that determine the gravity, hence the chances of the person wanting to seek forgiveness. No other sins severs one from the Church as does heresy/schism (sedeism)/apostasy, hence no other sin keeps one from seeking forgiveness as heresy/schism (sedeism)/apostasy. This is the meaning of Pope Pius XII's quote.
      

    "The adulterer can no longer receive absolution even though he may want it with all his heart, because he has severed himself from the Church with his adultery. St. Paul tells us that adulterers must not even be named among us Catholics."

    Could you give the cite, regarding St. Paul?

    There are two distinctions regarding adultery, one is of the flesh and the other is spiritual adultery, which means apostasy, heresy, schism.  Adultery of the flesh, a man has access to confession, the apostate does not.

    Why do you ignore ipso facto excommunications?  I do not understand you.

    Canon 2314, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “All apostates from the Christian faith and each and every heretic or schismatic: 1) Incur ipso facto [by that very fact] excommunication…”

    Pope Pius VI, even says that it is erroneous to believe that an examination must take place for [ipso facto] excommunications.

    Pope Pius VI, Auctorem fidei, Aug. 28, 1794
    47. Likewise, the proposition which teaches that it is necessary, according to the natural and divine laws, for either excommunication or for suspension, that a personal examination should precede, and that, therefore, sentences called ‘ipso facto’ have no other force than that of a serious threat without any actual effect” – false, rash, pernicious, injurious to the power of the Church, erroneous.



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #25 on: February 18, 2018, 03:34:08 PM »
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  • No approved authoritative Catholic source or author has EVER TAUGHT OCAC.  Period.  End of discussion.

    No approved authoritative Catholic source or author has EVER TAUGHT that Sedevacantism wasn't schism.  Period.  End of discussion.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #26 on: February 18, 2018, 03:43:40 PM »
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  • "The adulterer can no longer receive absolution even though he may want it with all his heart, because he has severed himself from the Church with his adultery. St. Paul tells us that adulterers must not even be named among us Catholics."

    Could you give the cite, regarding St. Paul?
    But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not so much as be named among you, as becometh saints....For know you this and understand, that no fornicator, or unclean, or covetous person (which is a serving of idols), hath inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.- Eph 5:3-5




    Quote
    Why do you ignore ipso facto excommunications?  I do not understand you.
    I do not ignore anything, I merely accept the fact that it is not our place nor within our right to declare with any authority whatsoever that one is excommunicated from the Church, even though the censure is ipso facto.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Luke3

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #27 on: February 18, 2018, 03:46:19 PM »
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  • Yes, I am afraid it is true. Heretics are indeed excommunicated ipso facto, but the Church is here to save all sinners, not condemn them mercilessly. Read the Council of Trent, Session 14, Chapter 7: ".....it has always been very piously observed in the said Church of God, that there be no reservation at the point of death, and that therefore all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavor, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit of absolution."

    The difference between the penitential heretic and the army deserter is that the army will court marshal and condemn the deserter, whereas the Church is here to forgive him - if he seeks forgiveness.

    In reality the church did not condemn the heretic, the heretic condemned himself, mercilessly.  But yes, I agree.  The apostate who is outside, can ask to come back in, if he seeks forgiveness, as you say.  But he must say explicitly what he did wrong.  Which means that he must first pronounce the profession of faith again, for which he destroyed in himself and thereafter, he can go to confession, regarding his apostasy.  He does not have access to confession right away.  That is the difference between a Catholic inside the church, in mortal sin and a heretic.

    By the way, God and the army, are very different.

    Isaias 55:9 For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    Offline Luke3

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #28 on: February 18, 2018, 04:19:17 PM »
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  • But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not so much as be named among you, as becometh saints....For know you this and understand, that no fornicator, or unclean, or covetous person (which is a serving of idols), hath inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.- Eph 5:3-5



    I do not ignore anything, I merely accept the fact that it is not our place nor within our right to declare with any authority whatsoever that one is excommunicated from the Church, even though the censure is ipso facto.
     



    "I do not ignore anything, I merely accept the fact that it is not our place nor within our right to declare with any authority whatsoever that one is excommunicated from the Church, even though the censure is ipso facto."

    Not true.

    Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul IV, “cuм ex Apostolatus Officio” 15th February 1559

    1.  In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiffwho is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. ...

    2.  Hence, concerning these matters, We have held mature deliberation with our venerable brothers the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church; and, upon their advice and with their unanimous agreement, we now enact as follows:-

    In respect of each and every sentence of excommunication, …   [including ipso facto]

    7. Finally, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, define and decree]:- that any and all persons who would have been subject to those thus promoted or elevated if they had not previously deviated from the Faith, become heretics, incurred schism or provoked or committed any or all of these, be they members of anysoever of the following categories:

    (i) the clergy, secular and religious;

    (ii) the laity;

    (iii) the Cardinals, even those who shall have taken part in the election of this very Pontiff previously deviating from the Faith or heretical or schismatical, or shall otherwise have consented and vouchsafed obedience to him and shall have venerated him;

    (iv) shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering).

    10. No one at all, therefore, may infringe this docuмent of our approbation, re-introduction, sanction, statute and derogation of wills and decrees, or by rash presumption contradict it. If anyone, however, should presume to attempt this, let him know that he is destined to incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul.

    Given in Rome at Saint Peter’s in the year of the Incarnation of the Lord 1559, 15th February, in the fourth year of our Pontificate.

    + I, Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church…

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: So - what's wrong with the term "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?
    « Reply #29 on: February 18, 2018, 05:21:52 PM »
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  • In reality the church did not condemn the heretic, the heretic condemned himself, mercilessly.  But yes, I agree.  The apostate who is outside, can ask to come back in, if he seeks forgiveness, as you say.  But he must say explicitly what he did wrong.  Which means that he must first pronounce the profession of faith again, for which he destroyed in himself and thereafter, he can go to confession, regarding his apostasy.  He does not have access to confession right away.  That is the difference between a Catholic inside the church, in mortal sin and a heretic.

    By the way, God and the army, are very different.

    Isaias 55:9 For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.
    Not all heretics are bound to make the profession of faith, further, that is certainly not a requirement lay people can bind anyone to no matter what the situation happens to be.  

    In fact, at every confession we are absolved from our sins by these words from the priest: "May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you, and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication, and interdict, in so far as I am able and you are needful. Next, I absolve you from your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."

    So, explain how is it that the priest absolves "from every bond of excommunication and interdict", yet those fallen away Catholics who are excommunicated heretics are not permitted to be absolved since they cannot go to confession because they are not Catholic? Kind of makes the formula used by the priest entirely meaningless and a waste of his time - no?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse