Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: Disputaciones on December 09, 2015, 09:55:28 AM
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I wanted to confirm this because it seemed to me that I read that lay people were sometimes allowed to make some readings in the TLM but I'm not sure.
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At my old independent chapel, our priest was always in a hurry. He went to a lot of small Mass locations especially on Sunday. Plus his first language was Polish. His sermons were always about 10 minutes long, and he didn't read the Epistle and Gospel. Instead, the chapel coordinator (an older man, who always wore a suit) would read the epistle and Gospel in English to the congregation while Father silently recited these from the Missale in Latin.
I don't know how "kosher" that is (pardon the term), but that was done for years.
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At my old independent chapel, our priest was always in a hurry. He went to a lot of small Mass locations especially on Sunday. Plus his first language was Polish. His sermons were always about 10 minutes long, and he didn't read the Epistle and Gospel. Instead, the chapel coordinator (an older man, who always wore a suit) would read the epistle and Gospel in English to the congregation while Father silently recited these from the Missale in Latin.
I don't know how "kosher" that is (pardon the term), but that was done for years.
If I remember correctly (and feel free to correct me on this), the homily is outside of Mass, technically. Therefore, this would be fine.
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Here is a photo of St. Pius V Catholic Church in Boston, Massachusetts on
11/22/1964 showing a man reading from a lay lector.
The Following Sunday was the First Sunday of Advent 11-29-1964 and
the 'Protestant Table' replaced the Altar.
I am an old Schooled Catholic. The Nuns always taught that more grace in
your soul, more you understand the Mass.
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[...] it seemed to me that I read that lay people were sometimes allowed to make some readings in the TLM [....]
A readily available source (quoted below) seems to indicate that doing so is the distinctive role of clergy possessing holy orders, specifically those who had received the minor order of lector (-ōris, m.) a.k.a. reader (literal translation to English). Altho' perhaps it was common for bishops with jurisdiction to grant dispensations that allowed the subject practice. And perhaps "dispensation" is not exactly the correct term.
A lector ([a.k.a.] reader) in the West is a clerk having the second of the four minor orders. [....]
During the first centuries all the lessons in the liturgy, including the Epistle and Gospel, were read by the lector. [....]
But gradually the lectorate lost all importance. The deacon obtained the office of reading the Gospel; in the West the Epistle became the privilege of the subdeacon. In the Eastern Churches this and other lessons are still supposed to be read by a lector, but everywhere- his office (as all minor orders) may be supplied by a layman. [....]  Everywhere the order of reader has become merely a stepping-stone to major orders, and a memory of early days. In the Roman Rite [
 in  it] is the second minor order (Ostiarius, Lector, Exorcista, Acolythus). [....]  The lectorate involves no obligation of celibacy or of any other kind. 
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Note *: Adrian Fortescue, 1910: "Lector". The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 9.  New York: Robert Appleton Company.  <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09111a.htm>.
Note #: Emphasis added. I don't know whether that should be parsed as 'everywhere only in the East', or so that it includes 'everywhere in the West'. Perhaps someone with training in a traditional Western seminary would be so kind as to clarify it for us?
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I have seen two chapels in which a layman read the epistle and gospel from a lectern in English while the priest read the epistle and gospel at the altar. Both chapels were independent chapels not affiliated, to my knowledge, with any particular group.
Whether or not this was "legal" or not, I don't know. I can only attest that I've seen it done.
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I have seen two chapels in which a layman read the epistle and gospel from a lectern in English while the priest read the epistle and gospel at the altar. Both chapels were independent chapels not affiliated, to my knowledge, with any particular group.
Whether or not this was "legal" or not, I don't know. I can only attest that I've seen it done.
Since the priest was at the Altar, we can assume that this was during Mass. If so, that's an abuse.
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I have seen two chapels in which a layman read the epistle and gospel from a lectern in English while the priest read the epistle and gospel at the altar. Both chapels were independent chapels not affiliated, to my knowledge, with any particular group.
Whether or not this was "legal" or not, I don't know. I can only attest that I've seen it done.
Since the priest was at the Altar, we can assume that this was during Mass. If so, that's an abuse.
Yes. The priest is saying the epistle and gospel during Mass while a layman read the epistle and Gospel from a lectern. When both were done with the Gospel, the layman went back to a pew and the priest moved the Missal, took the ...maniple (?) ... off his arm, laid it on the Missal, and went to the lectern and gave his sermon. At one of the chapels, the priest was not a native English speaker and his sermon was very difficult to understand.
As I said, all I am doing here is attesting to having seen this at a traditional Mass not affiliated with a diocese.
By the way, at the diocesan indult service on Good Friday each year, all three men who chant the Passion from the Gospel are laymen. When the FSSP was in town, they used to have a layman (who was thinking about going to the FSSP seminary) perform the parts assigned to the deacon at a high Mass. Again, I don't know if any of this is "legal", just that I have personally seen it done.
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Here is a photo of St. Pius V Catholic Church in Boston, Massachusetts on
11/22/1964 showing a man reading from a lay lector.
The Following Sunday was the First Sunday of Advent 11-29-1964 and
the 'Protestant Table' replaced the Altar.
I am an old Schooled Catholic. The Nuns always taught that more grace in
your soul, more you understand the Mass.
Your first picture of the congregation brought back so many wonderful memories
seeing all the women in kerchiefs or hats.
I wonder where the young (under 50) traditional women ever got the idea that a mantilla was traditional headwear acceptable for Mass.
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Here is a photo of St. Pius V Catholic Church in Boston, Massachusetts on
11/22/1964 showing a man reading from a lay lector.
The Following Sunday was the First Sunday of Advent 11-29-1964 and
the 'Protestant Table' replaced the Altar.
I am an old Schooled Catholic. The Nuns always taught that more grace in
your soul, more you understand the Mass.
Your first picture of the congregation brought back so many wonderful memories
seeing all the women in kerchiefs or hats.
I wonder where the young (under 50) traditional women ever got the idea that a mantilla was traditional headwear acceptable for Mass.
I've heard that using lace mantillas originated in France, and before that time the ladies' hair was not visible with proper covering. Even hats in church had fabric that carried down under them to cover up the hair of the wearer. The diaphanous look of lace was at first a bit shocking but it grew in popularity over the years anyway and spread to other countries. Today, we have women who never wear more that a tiny doily.
It has become commonplace for bridal headcovering:
(https://s3-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.headcoverings-by-devorah.com%2Fimages3%2FBridalLaceWhiteFloralVeniseTrim2.jpg&sp=ba90537b6c8eda9f30a76d87b0a9782c)
In fact, one of the most visible changes in the habitual clothing of nuns after Vat.II was that suddenly everyone could see their hair, whereas before, their heads were covered.
Little did the public realize that many of the sisters they had seen with hair all covered over actually had no hair at all, because it was all cut off under the habit. Therefore, by revealing her hair, the longstanding practice of cutting the hair off was abandoned.
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In my experience the only time laymen have read Scripture for Mass has been in Novus Ordo settings or some kind of hybrid deal. I have never once seen a Traditional Latin Mass with a layman (or woman obviously) reading an Epistle or a Gospel.
I don't doubt the veracity of these other posts saying it has happened, but I have never seen it in person, anywhere.
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I have also never seen this in my experience with the indult and the SSPX.
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In fact, one of the most visible changes in the habitual clothing of nuns after Vat.II was that suddenly everyone could see their hair, whereas before, their heads were covered.
Little did the public realize that many of the sisters they had seen with hair all covered over actually had no hair at all, because it was all cut off under the habit. Therefore, by revealing her hair, the longstanding practice of cutting the hair off was abandoned.
No hair at all? They were bald?
I would think they probably just left it very short for a woman but longer than any man.
Otherwise, how was their hair suddenly visible if it takes a long time for it to grow?
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In fact, one of the most visible changes in the habitual clothing of nuns after Vat.II was that suddenly everyone could see their hair, whereas before, their heads were covered.
Little did the public realize that many of the sisters they had seen with hair all covered over actually had no hair at all, because it was all cut off under the habit. Therefore, by revealing her hair, the longstanding practice of cutting the hair off was abandoned.
No hair at all? They were bald?
I would think they probably just left it very short for a woman but longer than any man.
Otherwise, how was their hair suddenly visible if it takes a long time for it to grow?
My daughter is a sister in a traditional order. I once asked her if she cut her hair completely since it's under her habit. She told me that there are times (seeing a doctor, for example) in which it would be necessary for someone to see her without the habit. For this reason, though her hair is normally covered, the sisters' hair is still cut to have a "feminine appearance".
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In fact, one of the most visible changes in the habitual clothing of nuns after Vat.II was that suddenly everyone could see their hair, whereas before, their heads were covered.
Little did the public realize that many of the sisters they had seen with hair all covered over actually had no hair at all, because it was all cut off under the habit. Therefore, by revealing her hair, the longstanding practice of cutting the hair off was abandoned.
No hair at all? They were bald?
I would think they probably just left it very short for a woman but longer than any man.
Otherwise, how was their hair suddenly visible if it takes a long time for it to grow?
My daughter is a sister in a traditional order. I once asked her if she cut her hair completely since it's under her habit. She told me that there are times (seeing a doctor, for example) in which it would be necessary for someone to see her without the habit. For this reason, though her hair is normally covered, the sisters' hair is still cut to have a "feminine appearance".
That's what I thought: what would happen if they were compelled to take off the covering, which is why I assumed they probably just had it short but still feminine.
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In my experience the only time laymen have read Scripture for Mass has been in Novus Ordo settings or some kind of hybrid deal. I have never once seen a Traditional Latin Mass with a layman (or woman obviously) reading an Epistle or a Gospel.
I don't doubt the veracity of these other posts saying it has happened, but I have never seen it in person, anywhere.
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I'm pretty sure from some videos I've seen that it is common practice at NO services, but like you, I've never seen and honestly, this is the first I've heard of a layman doing the readings.
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In my experience the only time laymen have read Scripture for Mass has been in Novus Ordo settings or some kind of hybrid deal. I have never once seen a Traditional Latin Mass with a layman (or woman obviously) reading an Epistle or a Gospel.
I don't doubt the veracity of these other posts saying it has happened, but I have never seen it in person, anywhere.
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I'm pretty sure from some videos I've seen that it is common practice at NO services, but like you, I've never seen and honestly, this is the first I've heard of a layman doing the readings.
It is common practice for a layman or laywoman to read the two epistles, the responsorial Psalm, and the Alleluia verse in the Novus Ordo. This is intended as part of the Novus Ordo liturgy itself. The priest does not read at all when this is occurring.
Having a layman read the epistle in the vernacular to the congregation is obviously not common, but, as I said above, I have seen it done in two chapels. In neither case, was it intended to be a formal part of the liturgy as the priest did say the readings in Latin at the altar. This may be, as was commented above, an abuse, I don't know. I just know it was done.
I'm responding here because it seems to me that the above two individuals seem to think this is a part of the Mass itself, whereas the reading of the epistle and gospel in the vernacular is not a part of the Mass.
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The priest is saying the epistle and gospel during Mass while a layman read the epistle and Gospel from a lectern.
The former in Latin, and the latter in English? In the mid-20th century U.S.A., each faithful adult--or adult couple--typically owned at least 1 Latin/English Missal, and it was a matter of pride to each child who'd received First Communion to use some approximation to one, and all brought them to Mass. The celebrant would read the epistle and gospel in whatever was his habitual vocal volume, but whether he was easily heard mattered little:  The faithful in the pews all turned pages to the missal section for the proper of the Mass of the day, using 1 of the ribbon-markers typically bound into their missals, and followed along in English.
But word-for-word Missals are an effective solution only for the literate faithful in the pews.
When both were done with the Gospel, the layman went back to a pew and the priest moved the Missal, [....]
A lay lector performing a function for which there seemed to be no need before Vatican II, but no altar boy available for wrestling the Missal around the altar? Any priest whose life was blessed by receiving a practically unquestionable ordination before the Novus Ordo took effect (esp. New Ordinal of ¿1968|1969|1970?), and received the grace that allowed him to reject it, couldn't now be much younger than 75 years old. Genuflection can become a challenge for men who are quite a few years younger than that, never mind carrying a Missal-&-stand down and up altar steps.
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The priest is saying the epistle and gospel during Mass while a layman read the epistle and Gospel from a lectern.
The former in Latin, and the latter in English?
Yes. The priest did not re-read the English epistle and gospel before the sermon as is typically done even though most people have hand missals.
When both were done with the Gospel, the layman went back to a pew and the priest moved the Missal....
A lay lector performing a function for which there seemed to be no need before Vatican II, but no altar boy available for wrestling the Missal around the altar?
Not sure what you're getting at. At Low Mass, the priest always (at least at every single low Mass I've ever attended) moves the Missal towards the center of the altar after he reads the gospel, most then remove the maniple, places it on the Missal, then returns to the foot of the altar before going to the lectern to give the sermon. The altar boy just doesn't move the Missal to the center of the altar after the gospel at a Low Mass. Are you saying the SSPX, FSSP, SSPV, CMRI, and most independent priests are doing this wrong?