Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Slander and gossip  (Read 3231 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 31168
  • Reputation: +27088/-494
  • Gender: Male
Slander and gossip
« on: October 21, 2014, 04:05:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Slander, gossip and backbiting are so ugly, especially when you see clear-cut instances of them. How perfectly opposite to the behavior of the Saints! (I sincerely hope that each of us has read many good Saints' biographies, so that we're intimately familiar with good Catholic behavior)

    One person's slander is another person's exposé, true, but that is from the point of view of the audience, or a 3rd party. The slanderer always knows his/her own malice!

    How malicious to use one's tongue as an instrument of hell; to spread falsehood and attempt to destroy the good name of one of God's friends.

    And no, you can never say a person won't end up one of God's friends. True, there are some individuals (Obama, Ted Turner) for whom that isn't very likely, but the Catholic Faith doesn't allow us to hate any non-condemned individual. But we're talking about men and women who consider themselves Traditional Catholics here, not atheists or Freemasons!

    It's easy to accept that hatred exists, in the abstract. But to read Traditional Catholics literally HATING each other, chiming in one after the other trying to make up/dream up/twist into being all manner of faults, is quite ugly.

    Charity rejoices in the truth and in goodness, it doesn't rejoice at evil. When you see people ENJOYING the fact that someone is being scandalous or evil, you know their hearts are not in the right place. Charity is truly SAD at the sight of evil or sin. Charity makes EXCUSES for others; it doesn't interpret every action in the worst possible light! Charity is optimistic to the point of folly, NOT pessimistic.

    But, most of all, Charity always loves the truth. Even if that truth exposes great evil and causes consequent sadness.

    Having seen it recently (I won't say on which forum I read the thread that inspired this post of mine), I can only say:

    I am heartily sorry for ANY TIME I was guilty of even the slightest specimen of these horrible sins of the tongue. To all those who I might have spoken ill of, I assure you I at least believed the charge to be true. I have many sins to be sorry for, but I must admit (all glory be to God) that I've never called evil "good", or good "evil". As a corollary, I've never had a problem with lying. I have plenty of other faults, though, don't get me wrong!

    So to those I helped destroy their good name, perhaps due to neglect, poor moderation of threads, personal emotion, misplaced zeal, etc. I heartily ask for your pardon and your prayers.


    Sincerely,

    Matthew


    P.S. I'm hoping that by writing this thread, and apologizing publicly for any times I was guilty of these sins, that SOME good will come of the various backbiting/slander/gossip threads that currently disgrace the Internet by their existence.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline Jaynek

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3874
    • Reputation: +1993/-1112
    • Gender: Female
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #1 on: October 21, 2014, 06:18:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Wow!  This is really powerful leading by example.


    Offline JPaul

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3832
    • Reputation: +3722/-293
    • Gender: Male
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #2 on: October 21, 2014, 08:10:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • God Bless you in your humility Matthew.

    Offline InfiniteFaith

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1590
    • Reputation: +167/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 09:51:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew
    Slander, gossip and backbiting are so ugly, especially when you see clear-cut instances of them. How perfectly opposite to the behavior of the Saints! (I sincerely hope that each of us has read many good Saints' biographies, so that we're intimately familiar with good Catholic behavior)

    One person's slander is another person's exposé, true, but that is from the point of view of the audience, or a 3rd party. The slanderer always knows his/her own malice!

    How malicious to use one's tongue as an instrument of hell; to spread falsehood and attempt to destroy the good name of one of God's friends.

    And no, you can never say a person won't end up one of God's friends. True, there are some individuals (Obama, Ted Turner) for whom that isn't very likely, but the Catholic Faith doesn't allow us to hate any non-condemned individual. But we're talking about men and women who consider themselves Traditional Catholics here, not atheists or Freemasons!

    It's easy to accept that hatred exists, in the abstract. But to read Traditional Catholics literally HATING each other, chiming in one after the other trying to make up/dream up/twist into being all manner of faults, is quite ugly.

    Charity rejoices in the truth and in goodness, it doesn't rejoice at evil. When you see people ENJOYING the fact that someone is being scandalous or evil, you know their hearts are not in the right place. Charity is truly SAD at the sight of evil or sin. Charity makes EXCUSES for others; it doesn't interpret every action in the worst possible light! Charity is optimistic to the point of folly, NOT pessimistic.

    But, most of all, Charity always loves the truth. Even if that truth exposes great evil and causes consequent sadness.

    Having seen it recently (I won't say on which forum I read the thread that inspired this post of mine), I can only say:

    I am heartily sorry for ANY TIME I was guilty of even the slightest specimen of these horrible sins of the tongue. To all those who I might have spoken ill of, I assure you I at least believed the charge to be true. I have many sins to be sorry for, but I must admit (all glory be to God) that I've never called evil "good", or good "evil". As a corollary, I've never had a problem with lying. I have plenty of other faults, though, don't get me wrong!

    So to those I helped destroy their good name, perhaps due to neglect, poor moderation of threads, personal emotion, misplaced zeal, etc. I heartily ask for your pardon and your prayers.


    Sincerely,

    Matthew


    P.S. I'm hoping that by writing this thread, and apologizing publicly for any times I was guilty of these sins, that SOME good will come of the various backbiting/slander/gossip threads that currently disgrace the Internet by their existence.


     :pray:

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #4 on: October 21, 2014, 10:07:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I hope to worthy enough to follow your example.
     :pray: :pray: :pray:


    Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2049
    • Reputation: +1285/-0
    • Gender: Female
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #5 on: October 21, 2014, 11:05:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • We all fall into this sin quite readily.
    Quote
    But, most of all, Charity always loves the truth. Even if that truth exposes great evil and causes consequent sadness

    Charitable correction vs. cruelty.

    From The Church's Year - Rev. Fr. Leonard Goffine:

    ON THE SIN OF DETRACTION
    And the same was accused unto him. (Luke XVI. 1.)

    The steward in the gospel was justly accused on account of the goods he had wasted; but there are many who lose their good name and honor by false accusations, and malicious talk! Alas, what great wrongs do detracting tongues cause in this world! How mean a vice is detraction, how seldom attention is paid to its evil, how rarely the injury is repaired!

    When is our neighbor slandered?

    When he is accused of a vice of which he is not guilty; when a secret crime is made known with the intention of hurting him, or when our duty does not require us to mention it; when we attribute an evil intention to him or entirely misconstrue his actions and omissions; when his good qualities or commendable actions are denied or lessened, or his merits underrated; when we remain silent, or speak ambiguously in cases where praise is due him; when we lend a willing ear to detractions, and make no effort to stop them; and lastly, when joy is felt in the detraction.

    Is detraction a great sin?

    Yes, for it is directly opposed to the love of our neighbor, therefore to the love of God, hence it is, as St. Ambrose says, hateful to God and man. By it we rob our neighbor of a possession greater than riches, (Prov. XXII. 1.) and often he is plunged by it into want and misery, even into the greatest vices; St. Ambrose says: "Let us fly from the vice of detraction, for it is altogether a satanic abyss, full of deceit." Finally, detraction is a great sin, because it can seldom be recalled, and the injury done by it is very great, and often irreparable.

    What should we do when we have committed this sin?

    We should retract the calumny as soon as possible and repair the injury done to our neighbor in regard to his name or temporal goods; we should detest this sin, regret it, and be cleansed from it by penance, we should daily pray for him whom we have injured, and in future guard against the like fault.

    Are we ever allowed to reveal the wrongs of our neighbor?

    To make public the faults of our neighbor only for the entertainment of idle people, or for the sake of news, and to satisfy the curiosity of others, is always sinful. But if after having reproached or advised our neighbor fraternally, without obtaining our end, we make known his faults to his parents or superiors for the sake of punishment and reformation, far from being a sin it is rather a duty, against which those err who are silent about the sins of their neighbor, when by speaking they could prevent the sin and save him much unhappiness.

    Is it a sin to listen willingly to detraction?

    Yes, for we thus give the detractors occasion and encouragement. Therefore St. Bernard says: "Whether to detract is a greater sin than to listen to detraction, I will not decide. The devil sits on the tongue of the detractor as he does on the ear of the listener." In such cases we must strive to interrupt, to prevent the detracting words, or else withdraw; or if we can do none of these, we must show in our countenance our displeasure, for the Holy Ghost says: The northwind driveth away rain, so doth a sad countenance a backbiting tongue. (Prov. XXV. 23.) The same demeanor is to be observed in regard to improper language.

    What varieties of detraction are there?

    There is a certain detestable kind of detraction which degrades and ridicules others by witty and sneering words. Still worse is that detraction which carries the faults of others from one place to another, thus exciting those who are on good terms to hard feeling, or making those who are living in enmity more opposed to each other. The whisperer and the double tongued, says the Holy Ghost, is accursed, for he bath troubled many that were at peace.

    What should deter us from detraction?

    The thought of the enormity of this sin; of the difficulty, even impossibility of repairing the injury caused; of the punishment it incurs, for St. Paul expressly says: Calumniators shall not possess the kingdom of God, (I Cor. VI. 10.). and Solomon writes: My son, fear the Lord, and the king: and have nothing to do with detractors; for their destruction shall rise suddenly. (Prov. XXIV 22.)

    SUPPLICATON Guard me, O most loving Jesus, that I may not be so blinded, either by hatred or, envy, as to rob my neighbor of his good name, or make myself guilty of such a grievous sin.

    CONSOLATION FOR THOSE WHO HAVE SUFFERED FROM DETRACTION

    If your good name has been taken away by evil tongues, you may be consoled by knowing that God permitted this to humble you, to exercise you in patience and free you from pride and vain self-complacency. Turn your eyes to the saints of the Old and the New Law, to the chaste Joseph who was cast into prison on a false charge of adultery, (Gen. XXXIX.) to the meek David publicly accused by Semei as a man of blood, (II Kings XVI. 7.) to the chaste Susanna who was also accused of adultery, tried and condemned to death. (Dan, XIII.) Jesus, the king of saints, was called a drunkard, accused and condemned as a blasphemer, a friend of the devil, an inciter of ѕєdιтισn among the people, and like the greatest criminal was nailed to the cross between two thieves. Remember besides that it does not injure you in the sight of God, if all possible evil is said of you, and that He, at all times, cares for those who trust in Him; for he who touches the honor of those who fear God, touches, as it were, the pupil of His eye, (Zach. II. 8.) and shall not go unpunished. St. Chrysostom says: "If you are guilty, be converted; if you are innocent, think of Christ."

    PRAYER O most innocent Jesus, who wert thus calumniated, I submit myself wholly to Thy divine will, and am, ready like Thee, to bear all slanders and detractions, as with perfect confidence I yield to land care my good name, convinced that Thou at Thy pleasure wilt defend and protect it, and save me from the hands of my enemies.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16432
    • Reputation: +4859/-1803
    • Gender: Female
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #6 on: October 22, 2014, 06:22:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm sorry too.  
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Brennus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 132
    • Reputation: +72/-12
    • Gender: Male
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #7 on: October 22, 2014, 09:44:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • I'm going the other way on this. The fact that Jaynek is the first one to post approval worries me.

    Can we have some more details so we know this is authentic. If so, I must say that I too commit such sins and confess them.  However, this could be a tool of silencing people from speaking out against those who are causing scandal and misleading the people.


    Offline Anthony Benedict

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 533
    • Reputation: +510/-4
    • Gender: Male
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #8 on: October 22, 2014, 10:40:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • From "Liberalism Is a Sin", with the approbation of the Holy Office under Pope Leo XIII

    CHAPTER 21

    PERSONAL POLEMICS AND LIBERALISM
      "It is all well enough to make war on abstract doctrines," some may say, "but in combating error, be it ever so evident, is it so proper to make an attack upon the persons of those who uphold it"? We reply that very often it is, and not only proper but at times even indispensable and meritorious before God and men.

    The accusation of indulging in personalities is not spared to Catholic apologists, and when Liberals and those tainted with Liberalism have hurled it at our heads they imagine that we are overwhelmed by the charge. But they deceive themselves. (115) We are not so easily thrust in the back ground. We have reason and substantial reason on our side. In order to combat and discredit false ideas, we must inspire contempt and horror in the hearts of the multitude for those who seek to seduce and debauch them. A disease is inseparable from the persons of the diseased. The cholera threatening a country comes in the persons of the infected. If we wish to exclude it we must exclude them. Now ideas do not in any case go about in the abstract; they neither spread nor propagate from themselves. Left to themselves, if it be possible to imagine them apart from those who conceive them, they would never produce all the evil from which society suffers. It is only in the concrete that they are effective; when they are the personal product of those who conceive them. They are like the arrows and the balls which would hurt no one if they were not shot from the bow or the gun. It is the archer and the gunner to whom we should give our first attention; save for them the fire would not be murderous. Any other method of warfare might be Liberal, if you please, but it would ;not be commonsense.

    The authors and propagators of heretical doctrines are soldiers with poisoned weapons in their hands. Their arms are the book, (116) the journal, the lecture, their personal influence. Is it sufficient to dodge their blows? Not at all; the first thing necessary is to demolish the combatant himself. When he is hors de combat, he can do no more mischief.

    It is therefore perfectly proper not only to discredit any book, journal or discourse of the enemy, but it is also proper, in certain cases, to even discredit his person; for in warfare, beyond question, the principal element is the person engaged, as the gunner is the principal factor in an artillery fight and not the cannon, the powder and the bomb. It is thus lawful, in certain cases, to expose the infamy of a Liberal opponent, to bring his habits into contempt, and drag his name in the mire. Yes, this is permissible, permissible in prose, in verse, in caricature, in a serious vein or in badinage, by every means and ;method within reach. The only restriction is not to employ a lie in the service of justice. This never. Under no pretext may we sully the truth, even to the dotting of an i. As a French writer says: "Truth is the only charity allowed in history," and, we may add, in the defense of religion and society.

    The Fathers of the Church support this thesis. The very title of their works clearly show that, in their contests with heresy, (117) their first blow was at the heresiarchs. The works of St. Augustine almost always bear the name of the author of the heresy against which they are written: Contra Fortunatum Manichoeum; Adversus Adamanctum; Contra Felicem; Contra Secundinum; Quis fuerit Petiamus; De gestis Pelagii; Quis fuerit Julianus, etc. Thus the greater part of the polemics of this great doctor was personal, aggressive, biographical, as well as doctrinal, a handtohand struggle with heretics as well as with heresy. What we here say of St. Augustine we can say of the other Fathers. Whence do the Liberals derive their power to impose upon us the new obligation of fighting error only in the abstract and of lavishing smiles and flattery upon them? We, the Ultramontanes, will fight our battles according to Christian tradition, and defend the faith as it has always been defended in the Church of God. When it strikes let the sword of the Catholic polemist wound, and when it wounds, wound mortally. This is the only real and efficacious means of waging war.

    Offline Brennus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 132
    • Reputation: +72/-12
    • Gender: Male
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #9 on: October 22, 2014, 11:13:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • I love that book.

    Also, I remember St. Pius X said something like "they want us to deal with heretics with smiles and soap. NO! They need to be buffeted with fists."  


    Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2049
    • Reputation: +1285/-0
    • Gender: Female
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #10 on: October 22, 2014, 11:46:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That book was instrumental in my "conversion" back to tradition, and I've distributed it to my many novus ordo family members:  http://www.liberalismisasin.com/
    It can also be purchased on Amazon (be sure to go through this site)


    We must always and everywhere vigorously defend His Church. He will most certainly hold us accountable at Judgement.  But in waging verbal warfare, especially against our brothers in the Faith, it is necessary to avoid the sin of detraction, as defined in a previous post.  This requires wisdom to know how to be charitable in correction. Charity is not a feminine characteristic that suggests weakness, but in this context, the deliverance of objective truth sans cruelty and / or rejoicing in anothers' comeuppance.  

    I must say, some on this forum excel at tough, charitable correction without unnecessary insult, projection, emotion, or using icons to deliver a childish insult.  I've been on the receiving end of it - it is much more effective in prompting a change in philosophy, where detraction is sinful so nothing good can come from it.


    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4577/-579
    • Gender: Female
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #11 on: October 22, 2014, 01:07:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta
    That book was instrumental in my "conversion" back to tradition, and I've distributed it to my many novus ordo family members:  http://www.liberalismisasin.com/
    It can also be purchased on Amazon (be sure to go through this site)




    Many thanks for the excellent resource:

    Quote

    The good of all good is the divine good, just as God is for all men the neighbor of all neighbors. In consequence the love due to a man inasmuch as he is our neighbor ought always to be subordinated to that which is due to our common Lord. For His love and in His service we must not hesitate to offend men. The degree of our offense towards men can only be measured by the degree of our obligation (105) to him. Charity is primarily the love of God, secondarily the love of our neighbor for God's sake. To sacrifice the first is to abandon the latter. Therefore to offend our neighbor for the love of God is a true act of charity. Not to offend our neighbor for the love of God is a sin.

    Modern Liberalism reverses this order. It imposes a false notion of charity; our neighbor first, and, if at all, God afterwards.


    There is true charity and false charity. The first, focuses on God for the good of our neighbor, the second focuses on the neighbor, even at the expense of God. The end result of "not wanting to hurt sensibilities" or prioritizing the interest of the world over God's, is clearly exemplified in the Synod. True charity really focuses on the salvation of our neighbor's soul, in the life to come. False charity tolerates error and sin to harmonize the interests and pleasures of this earthly exile.

    When the salvation of souls is at stake, the Church should either know neither silence nor false delicacy. In the individual level, St. Augustine rightly teaches us to hate the sin, but not the sinner.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline shin

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1671
    • Reputation: +854/-4
    • Gender: Male
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #12 on: October 22, 2014, 01:29:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes it truly is a priceless book and full of great quotes like the last.  :smile:

    Quote

    To effect a confusion of ideas is an old scheme of the devil. Not to understand clearly and precisely is generally the source of intellectual error. In time of schism and heresy, to cloud and distort the proper sense of words is a fruitful artifice of Satan, and it is as easy to lay snares for the intellectually proud as for the innocent. Every heresy in the Church bears testimony to Satan's success in deceiving the human intellect by obscuring and perverting the meaning of words. Arianism was a battle of words and owed its long-continued success to its verbal chicanery. Pelagianism and Jansenism showed the same characteristic, and today Liberalism is as cunning and obscure as any of its heretical predecessors.
    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline clare

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2270
    • Reputation: +889/-38
    • Gender: Female
      • h
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #13 on: October 22, 2014, 02:49:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Anthony Benedict
    From "Liberalism Is a Sin", with the approbation of the Holy Office under Pope Leo XIII

    CHAPTER 21

    PERSONAL POLEMICS AND LIBERALISM
    ... The only restriction is not to employ a lie in the service of justice. This never. Under no pretext may we sully the truth, even to the dotting of an i...

    That would appear to rule out slander and gossip.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31168
    • Reputation: +27088/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Slander and gossip
    « Reply #14 on: October 22, 2014, 03:34:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Brennus


    I love that book.

    Also, I remember St. Pius X said something like "they want us to deal with heretics with smiles and soap. NO! They need to be buffeted with fists."  



    Yes. Heretics. Not fellow Catholics.

    You realize that in normal times, including when that quote was written, heretics were ONLY declared to be such by our Holy Mother the Church and no one else. Catholics in 1910 could never have envisioned a "Dimond Brothers" or any other pseudo-magisterium excommunicating Catholics left and right for disagreeing with them.

    Humanly speaking, It's far too easy to "declare" who is a heretic yourself, relying on private judgment. It's a very human tendency to argue and disagree with your fellow man.

    But it's not just a a typical human argument, because in this case you add fervor and urgency of life-and-death matters of eternal salvation and religion. A recipe for disaster!

    It's not open for debate: we are not allowed to hate anyone outside the bounds of Hell itself. Look it up if you don't believe me.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com