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Author Topic: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell  (Read 1595 times)

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Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
« on: March 30, 2018, 10:24:38 AM »
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  • http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/30/vatican-literally-falls-apart-pope-francis-says-hell-doesnt-exist-7428578/

    Vatican literally falls apart after Pope Francis says ‘Hell doesn’t exist’ Joe RobertsFriday 30 Mar 2018 12:34 pm The ceiling of St Peter’s Basilica started falling apart after Pope Francis allegedly said ‘Hell does not exist’ (Picture: EPA) The Vatican is literally falling apart after Pope Francis allegedly said ‘Hell does not exist’. Just hours after the Pope reportedly dismissed the fiery afterlife, the ceiling of St Peter’s Basilica began to crumble. Pubs open in Ireland on Good Friday for the first time since 1927 Easter worshippers ducked for cover as debris rained down on the floor by Michelangelo’s Pieta statue yesterday. The Vatican reported no injuries and minimal damage, just after a spokesman strenuously denied that the Roman Catholic Church was changing its tune over the afterlife. ‘No words in quotation marks should be considered as a faithful transcription of the Holy Father’s words,’ a Vatican spokesman said. Pope Francis says your unrepentant souls will simply disappear forever. Hurrah! (Picture: Reuters) The Vatican was rocked by the Pope’s alleged admission (Picture: Getty) The controversy follows Francis’ interview with a 93-year-old atheist Eugenio Scalfari. The veteran journalist appeared to suggest Francis had abolished the idea of Hell from Catholic doctrine in his report for La Repubblica, the daily newspaper he founded. Instead, the Pope allegedly said the souls of the unrepentant will simply disappear forever and go unpunished.  Mr Scalfari’s report has been thrown into doubt as he admitted their conversation was reconstructed from memory as he doesn’t take notes or recordings. ‘They are not punished, those who repent obtain the forgiveness of God and go among the ranks of the souls who contemplate him,’ Francis reportedly said. ‘But those who do not repent, and therefore cannot be forgiven, disappear.’ For centuries, traditional Catholic doctrine has told followers that those who die in a state of mortal sin will land themselves in Hell’s ‘unquenchable fire’.



    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #1 on: March 30, 2018, 11:05:09 AM »
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  • I’m surprised that is all that fell :fryingpan:


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #2 on: March 31, 2018, 07:03:05 PM »
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  • God is angry with all of us.  
    On Good Friday, he gave us signs that He is dissapointed in all of us, including Pope Francis. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #3 on: April 01, 2018, 04:48:55 PM »
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  • http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/30/vatican-literally-falls-apart-pope-francis-says-hell-doesnt-exist-7428578/

    Vatican literally falls apart after Pope Francis says ‘Hell doesn’t exist’ Joe RobertsFriday 30 Mar 2018 12:34 pm The ceiling of St Peter’s Basilica started falling apart after Pope Francis allegedly said ‘Hell does not exist’ (Picture: EPA) The Vatican is literally falling apart after Pope Francis allegedly said ‘Hell does not exist’. Just hours after the Pope reportedly dismissed the fiery afterlife, the ceiling of St Peter’s Basilica began to crumble. Pubs open in Ireland on Good Friday for the first time since 1927 Easter worshippers ducked for cover as debris rained down on the floor by Michelangelo’s Pieta statue yesterday. The Vatican reported no injuries and minimal damage, just after a spokesman strenuously denied that the Roman Catholic Church was changing its tune over the afterlife. ‘No words in quotation marks should be considered as a faithful transcription of the Holy Father’s words,’ a Vatican spokesman said. Pope Francis says your unrepentant souls will simply disappear forever. Hurrah! (Picture: Reuters) The Vatican was rocked by the Pope’s alleged admission (Picture: Getty) The controversy follows Francis’ interview with a 93-year-old atheist Eugenio Scalfari. The veteran journalist appeared to suggest Francis had abolished the idea of Hell from Catholic doctrine in his report for La Repubblica, the daily newspaper he founded. Instead, the Pope allegedly said the souls of the unrepentant will simply disappear forever and go unpunished.  Mr Scalfari’s report has been thrown into doubt as he admitted their conversation was reconstructed from memory as he doesn’t take notes or recordings. ‘They are not punished, those who repent obtain the forgiveness of God and go among the ranks of the souls who contemplate him,’ Francis reportedly said. ‘But those who do not repent, and therefore cannot be forgiven, disappear.’ For centuries, traditional Catholic doctrine has told followers that those who die in a state of mortal sin will land themselves in Hell’s ‘unquenchable fire’.
    .
    Going by your thread title and your OP, it seems the ceiling plaster in St. Peter's Basilica (where the Pieta sculpture by Michelangelo is located) fell near some visitors ("Easter worshippers"). That is not the Sistine Chapel ceiling, which is in a separate building nearby St. Peter's.
    .
    It's curious how this worldwide attention is energetically given to what an avowed atheist has to say about hell.
    .
    Eugenio Scalfari has no qualifications as a theologian, doesn't believe God exists, and doesn't believe in heaven or an afterlife, so how could he give accurate information about what Bishop-of-Rome Francis said regarding hell?
    .
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    Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #4 on: April 01, 2018, 09:51:31 PM »
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  • Sorry to disagree Neil, but atheist or not, I think the man understood what he heard and most likely repeated accurately the gist of the conversation, even if it wasn't absolutely verbatim. My 8 yr old grandson could understand and relate that message if it were given to him. (i.e. "There is no Hell, the 'bad souls' just disappear and don't go to Heaven.") I don't think a bonafide theologian is necessary for that.


    Offline Marcelino

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #5 on: April 02, 2018, 01:43:12 AM »
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  • "Statement of the Vatican Press Office on Pope's remarks to Scalfari

    The Press Office of the Holy See has released a statement on Thursday concerning remarks attributed to Pope Francis in an article in Italian newspaper "La Repubblica."

    Statement of the Press Office

    The Holy Father recently received the founder of the newspaper La Repubblica in a private meeting on the occasion of Easter, without, however, granting him an interview. What is reported by the author in today’s article is the fruit of his reconstruction, in which the precise words uttered by the Pope are not cited. No quotations in the aforementioned article, then, should be considered as a faithful transcription of the words of the Holy Father.

    30 March 2018, 08:41"

    https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2018-03/pope-francis-article-repubblica-press-release.html

    Offline Marcelino

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #6 on: April 02, 2018, 01:46:02 AM »
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  • "VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The Vatican said comments attributed to Pope Francis denying the existence of hell are a product of an Italian journalist's "reconstruction" of the pope's remarks and not a faithful transcript of the pope's real words.  

    Eugenio Scalfari, a co-founder and former editor of La Repubblica, an Italian daily, said Pope Francis -- with whom he has had several telephone conversations and face-to-face meetings -- invited him to his residence March 27.

    During their conversation, Scalfari, 93, an avowed atheist, claims the pope said that while the souls of repentant sinners "receive the forgiveness of God and go among the line of souls who contemplate him, the souls of those who are unrepentant, and thus cannot be forgiven, disappear."

    "Hell does not exist, the disappearance of sinful souls exists," Scalfari claims the pope said in the interview published March 29.

    The Italian journalist has explained on more than one occasion that he does not take notes or record his conversations with the pope; he re-creates them afterward from memory, including the material he puts in quotation marks.

    The Vatican issued a statement soon after the article was published, saying the pope did receive Scalfari "in a private meeting" to exchange Easter greetings, but he did not "give him an interview."

    Regarding the alleged words of the pope, which were also published in a similar article written by the journalist in 2014, the Vatican said Scalfari's article "is a product of his own reconstruction in which the actual words pronounced by the pope are not cited."

    "No quotes of the aforementioned article should therefore be considered as a faithful transcription of the Holy Father's words," the Vatican said.

    According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "immediately after death, the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, 'eternal fire.'"

    "The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs," the catechism says.

    The alleged quotes ascribed to Pope Francis directly contradict the many public remarks he has made in homilies and speeches confirming the existence of hell.

    Meeting a group of children and teens during a Rome parish visit March 8, 2015, a female Scout asked the pope, "If God forgives everybody, why does hell exist?"

    The pope praised the question, saying it was "very important" as well as "a good and difficult question."

    The pope assured the children that God is good but reminded them that there was also a "very proud angel, very proud, very intelligent, and he was envious of God. Do you understand? He was envious of God. He wanted God's place. And God wanted to forgive him, but he said, 'I don't need your forgiveness. I am good enough!'"

    "This is hell: It is telling God, 'You take care of yourself because I'll take care of myself.' They don't send you to hell, you go there because you choose to be there. Hell is wanting to be distant from God because I do not want God's love. This is hell. Do you understand?"

    On other occasions, the pope has described hell as the destination for those who choose to continue to sin and do evil.

    Speaking to families of victims of the Mafia March 21, 2014, the pope made an appeal to all men and women in the Mafia to stop, turn their lives around and convert.

    "Convert, there is still time for not ending up in hell. It is what is waiting for you if you continue on this path," the pope said.

    - - -

    Contributing to this story was Carol Glatz at the Vatican."

    http://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2018/vatican-claim-that-pope-denied-hells-existence-is-unreliable.cfm

    Offline Marcelino

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #7 on: April 02, 2018, 01:49:39 AM »
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  • "Vatican: Don’t trust report that Pope Francis denied reality of hell

    By Hannah Brockhaus

    Vatican City, Mar 29, 2018 / 08:21 am (CNA/EWTN News).- On Thursday the Holy See stated that a reported interview between Pope Francis and an Italian journalist, which claims the Pope denied the existence of hell, should not be considered an accurate depiction of Francis’ words, but the author’s own “reconstruction.”

    A recent meeting between Pope Francis and Italian journalist Eugenio Scalfari, 93, was a “private meeting for the occasion of Easter, however without giving him any interview,” the March 29 communique stated.

    “What is reported by the author in today’s article is the result of his reconstruction, in which the literal words pronounced by the Pope are not quoted. No quotation of the aforementioned article must therefore be considered as a faithful transcription of the words of the Holy Father.”

    Scalfari, a self-proclaimed atheist, is the founder and former editor of Italian leftist newspaper La Repubblica. In an article published on the site March 29, Scalfari claims that Pope Francis told him, “hell doesn’t exist, the disappearance of the souls of sinners exists.”

    Scalfari’s fifth meeting with Pope Francis, it is not the first time he has misrepresented the Pope’s words following a private audience.

    In November 2013, following intense controversy over quotes the journalist had attributed to Francis, Scalfari admitted that at least some of the words he had published a month prior “were not shared by the Pope himself.”

    In a meeting with the journalists of the Foreign Press Association of Rome in 2013, Scalfari maintained that all his interviews have been conducted without a recording device, nor taking notes while the person is speaking.

    “I try to understand the person I am interviewing, and after that I write his answers with my own words,” Scalfari explained. He conceded that it is therefore possible that “some of the Pope’s words I reported, were not shared by Pope Francis.”

    Scalfari also falsely reported that Pope Francis had made comments denying the existence of hell in 2015.

    Vatican spokespersons have dismissed the texts of Scalfari as unofficial. In 2014, Fr. Federico Lombardi, past papal spokesperson, told CNA that “if there are no words published by the Holy See press office and not officially confirmed, the writer takes full responsibility for what he has written.”

    Pope Francis has previously spoken about the existence of hell in public speeches, including at a prayer vigil in March 2014.

    There he gave an address in which he said that members of the mafia should change their lives, “while there is still time, so that you do not end up in hell. That is what awaits you if you continue on this path.”

    Citing Pope Paul VI, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that Catholic teaching "affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, 'eternal fire.' The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.""

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-dont-trust-report-that-pope-francis-denied-reality-of-hell-53450


    Offline Marcelino

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #8 on: April 02, 2018, 01:53:13 AM »
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  • .
    Going by your thread title and your OP, it seems the ceiling plaster in St. Peter's Basilica (where the Pieta sculpture by Michelangelo is located) fell near some visitors ("Easter worshippers"). That is not the Sistine Chapel ceiling, which is in a separate building nearby St. Peter's.
    .
    It's curious how this worldwide attention is energetically given to what an avowed atheist has to say about hell.
    .
    Eugenio Scalfari has no qualifications as a theologian, doesn't believe God exists, and doesn't believe in heaven or an afterlife, so how could he give accurate information about what Bishop-of-Rome Francis said regarding hell?
    .
    Good point.  

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/are-an-atheist-journalists-papal-interviews-reliable-75535

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #9 on: April 02, 2018, 09:58:44 PM »
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  • Well, giving this some thought: Because the pope(?) says the New Order Mess, it this not enough to express by actions that there is no hell?  For if he did believe in hell, would he not want, desire, beg for the powers of the Most Precious Blood!?  So is he not demonstrating to the whole world that he does not have need of the Most Precious Blood!?

    By their actions/fruits you shall know them!

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #10 on: April 02, 2018, 10:13:33 PM »
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  • Well, giving this some thought: Because the pope(?) says the New Order Mess, it this not enough to express by actions that there is no hell?  For if he did believe in hell, would he not want, desire, beg for the powers of the Most Precious Blood!?  So is he not demonstrating to the whole world that he does not have need of the Most Precious Blood!?

    By their actions/fruits you shall know them!
    .
    It might be an interesting project to cross-compare all the sayings and utterances Francis has made. In the post above, he told a group of children and teens in a Rome parish visit, "This is hell: It is telling God, 'You take care of yourself because I'll take care of myself.' They don't send you to hell, you go there because you choose to be there. Hell is wanting to be distant from God because I do not want God's love. This is hell. Do you understand?"
    .
    Then he got in the news for refusing to kneel before the Blessed Sacrament. Does this mean he thinks he doesn't need God?
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #11 on: April 02, 2018, 10:37:06 PM »
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  • Sorry to disagree Neil, but atheist or not, I think the man understood what he heard and most likely repeated accurately the gist of the conversation, even if it wasn't absolutely verbatim. My 8 yr old grandson could understand and relate that message if it were given to him. (i.e. "There is no Hell, the 'bad souls' just disappear and don't go to Heaven.") I don't think a bonafide theologian is necessary for that.
    .
    All I'm saying is that Scalfari said he didn't take notes and didn't record the conversation, so what he's publishing is his own interpretation of what he heard, which means that whatever Francis told him first passed through the filter of the mind and heart of an atheist -- who probably heard what he WANTED to hear and remembered what he WANTED to remember and knows enough about journalism to be able to know what he can get away with saying in this set of circuмstances. 
    .
    If Francis used any esoteric theological vocabulary it's not unreasonable to expect Scalfari had completely missed that point, whatever it was. In one previous quip Francis used "coprophagia" and the world had to run to the dictionary to know what he was saying. Scalfari apparently didn't bring any dictionary to the meeting. He said he took no notes, made no recording and had brought nothing to help him remember. Now, some people can remember every spoken syllable for hours on end, but is Scalfari one of those? He's never claimed that he is. He just says he usually doesn't take notes or make recordings of meetings with people. He might be lying, and he might bring a concealed recording device to all his meetings but likes to be able to deny that he's done that so his consistency can be used to support his denial of having recorded something. Notice they don't say what language was used. They both speak Italian so that was likely it, but how good is Francis' Italian? His primary language is Spanish -- he's from Argentina. Maybe Scalfari, whose mother tongue is Italian, maybe his version is better Italian than what he had heard! 
    .
    You might be right, that what Scalfari has offered us is precisely the meaning that Francis had given him, even if not in so many words. Francis has not come out with a refutation. He's letting his public relations lawyers handle that for him.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #12 on: April 02, 2018, 10:54:54 PM »
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  • .
    This reminds me of a song by Rodgers and Hart:
    .
    When I was only governor, and just a good-time Charlie,
    A certain party came to me - he said his name was Farley. 
    Don't print it - it's strictly off the record.

    He sat right down and talked to me till I was in a stupor, 
    And ended up by selling me the works of Fenimore Cooper. 
    Don't print it - it's strictly off the record. 

    I said, "you're quite a salesman; you've been sent here by the fates. 
    If you can sell these dreary books, which ev'rybody hates, 
    Then maybe you can sell me to the whole United States!" 
    But that's off the record.

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    Offline Marcelino

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    Re: Sistine ceiling plaster falls after Pope's denial of Hell
    « Reply #13 on: April 03, 2018, 02:20:25 AM »
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  • .
    This reminds me of a song by Rodgers and Hart:
    .
    When I was only governor, and just a good-time Charlie,
    A certain party came to me - he said his name was Farley.
    Don't print it - it's strictly off the record.

    He sat right down and talked to me till I was in a stupor,
    And ended up by selling me the works of Fenimore Cooper.
    Don't print it - it's strictly off the record.

    I said, "you're quite a salesman; you've been sent here by the fates.
    If you can sell these dreary books, which ev'rybody hates,
    Then maybe you can sell me to the whole United States!"
    But that's off the record.
    A couple of Jєωs.  One was even a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ.