Author Topic: Sinful thoughts? (Read 2526 times)

Desmond · « **on:** January 03, 2016, 11:57:07 AM »

I'm uncertain, due to the extreme subjectivisation in contemporary catholic moral theology (?), about this topic.

In general, does it make a difference if thoughts are voluntary or not in regards to their sinful nature?

In our day and age it is almost impossible, except through hermitism maybe, to avoid scandalous and/or blasphemous ideas, be them implicit or explicit.

Even talking to your average person is often sufficient to hear all sorts of impure things.

Hence, my question is the following:
are exogenous ideas, when received by our mind, and contemplated upon, sinful in themselves?

What about ex nihilo thoughts, seemingly originating from our own mind, but rejected as soon and best as possible with a conscious effort?

Would even those need to be confessed?

It's very hard to determine the origin of thoughts, but on the same token, it is also hard if not impossible to be sorry about something one doesn't perceive as his fault?

Realising I can't express myself clearly and properly, and apologising and thanking everyone in advance,

Desmond.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2016, 12:15:04 PM »

Temptations are not sin. A temptation of thought can be very often involuntary. All saints had impure temptations, even the ones who lived in caves and had no possible connection to scandal or occasions to sin. The point is to not accept the thoughts, which is a matter of the will. But no matter how holy one is, you'll never get rid of temptation. It may become easier to conquer, but human nature is always frail.

Arvinger · « **Reply #2 on:** January 03, 2016, 12:35:39 PM »

Such thoughts are often involuntary and thus not sinful - there are many people who suffer from intrusive blasphemious thoughts, often being result of OCD. Such thoughts can appear without a reason and are difficult to fight - the more you want to supress them, the more obtrusive they become (somewhere I read a good comparison - if I tell you "dont think about apples for next 10 seconds", what will you think about? I bet you will end up thinking about apples). For any thoughts to be sinful there must be a conscious and voluntary contemplation of them or indulging in them on your part.

If these thoughts are unwanted, you do your best to fight them and don't give them voluntary consent, there is no sin involved. I talked to SSPX priest from my chapel about it, he said many people suffer these uncontrollable intrusive blasphemious thoughts even during Mass, and if you do not accept these thoughts and consciously reject them, you are not sinning. God knows these thoughts are not from you.

Desmond · « **Reply #3 on:** January 03, 2016, 12:59:22 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

Temptations are not sin. A temptation of thought can be very often involuntary. All saints had impure temptations, even the ones who lived in caves and had no possible connection to scandal or occasions to sin. The point is to not accept the thoughts, which is a matter of the will. But no matter how holy one is, you'll never get rid of temptation. It may become easier to conquer, but human nature is always frail.

Yes I thought as much, by parallel with temptation proper, for instance we all know about Padre Pio's constant (demonic) temptations throughout his life.

Quote from: Arvinger

Such thoughts are often involuntary and thus not sinful - there are many people who suffer from intrusive blasphemious thoughts, often being result of OCD.

Correct me if wrong, but weren't similar thoughts once believed to be the result of demonic influences? Such in medieval demonology etc. Also exemplified in St. Ignatius' rules for the discernment of spirits?

Quote from: Arvinger

For any thoughts to be sinful there must be a conscious and voluntary contemplation of them or indulging in them on your part.

If these thoughts are unwanted, you do your best to fight them and don't give them voluntary consent, there is no sin involved.

Well, apart from the difficulty in closing one's mind to them, how can one be sure about it anyway? It would require constant mental monitoring on one's own train of thoughts with the risk of evoking, as you said yourself, the very thoughts he's trying to avoid.

Quote from: Arvinger

I talked to SSPX priest from my chapel about it, he said many people suffer these uncontrollable intrusive blasphemious thoughts even during Mass,(...)

I wasn't talking about such blasphemous exceptional thoughts, but normal ones picked up from others/tv/books/internet, and meant spontaneous lustful ones for instance. However what the priest describes doesn't seem to be normal at all, but result of either psychological or spiritual troubles.

It is often said a preliminary sign of demonic oppression/influence is the frequent appearance of blasphemous inclinations coupled with aversion towards the sacred for instance.

Quote from: Arvinger

God knows these thoughts are not from you.

Ok so they are from demons/spirits?
It would seem they once were accepted as normal more all less a.k.a. ordinary in the functioning of an individual's mind, whether today, even in demonology, we have a clear distinction between the ordinary-natural vs extraordinary (pathological in psychiatry?)-praeternatural.

Arvinger · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2016, 02:06:56 PM »

Of course devil might be (and probably is) involved in intrusive blasphemious thoughts (although OCD is well-known reason to cause them - relationship between such problems and devil is something I'm not competent to talk about). It is understandable - sadly, vast majority of human population today lives in the state of mortal sin and is on the pathway to hell, thus the devil focuses his efforts on those few who keep the faith. If you google "uncontrollable blasphemious thoughts" or something like that you will see how widespread the problem is - it can certainly be related to the fact that Satan is at the height of his power in the world today (anti-Christian governments and popular culture, rise of Mohammedanism, abortion h0Ɩ0cαųst, public acceptance of sodomy - the scale of today's evil is uncomparable with any point in the history since Christianization of the Roman Empire). That does not mean the intrusive and unwanted thoughts are sinful (and certainly not mortally sinful, since mortal sin requires full consent).

It is worth to note that there were several Saints who suffered such intruvise blasphemious thoughts - among them St. Anthony Mary Claret and St. Therese of Lisieux.

poche · « **Reply #5 on:** January 05, 2016, 01:28:22 AM »

In order for a sin to be mortal three things are required; grave matter, knowledge, and consent. While it is true that sinful thoughts are sinful and we all understand that they are sinful it is also true that sometime it is by our thoughts that the devil will confront us. Many times this is how he tries to induce us to sin. So, if you do not consent to the sinful thoughts then you do not have culpability for them.
The next time that you are confronted by the sinful thoughts I recommend the following invocations; "Yes to Jesus Christ. No to sin." or "Oh my Jesus please give me purity." Say these prayers over and over again and maybe you can defeat the devil. It will also help if you call upon the Immaculate Virgin Mary.

Lighthouse · « **Reply #6 on:** January 06, 2016, 01:05:30 AM »

You destroyed me at "ex nihilo" thoughts and "exogenous ideas".

Ladislaus · « **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2016, 05:58:01 AM »

Quote from: Lighthouse

You destroyed me at "ex nihilo" thoughts and "exogenous ideas".

I think that he's referring to thoughts that pop into your head for no reason, out of nowhere, or from outside ... as opposed to thoughts that a person might generate from within his own mind. If one exposes himself to certain things, like watching a bad movie, even if he does not consent directly to impure thoughts, there still may be a venial culpability because a specific decision occasioned the thoughts.

Stubborn · « **Reply #8 on:** January 06, 2016, 06:41:34 AM »

Quote from: Desmond

I'm uncertain, due to the extreme subjectivisation in contemporary catholic moral theology (?), about this topic.

In general, does it make a difference if thoughts are voluntary or not in regards to their sinful nature?

We must confess all sins, mortal, venial and those we are unsure of.

Desmond · « **Reply #9 on:** January 06, 2016, 01:39:16 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Lighthouse
You destroyed me at "ex nihilo" thoughts and "exogenous ideas".

I think that he's referring to thoughts that pop into your head for no reason, out of nowhere, or from outside ... as opposed to thoughts that a person might generate from within his own mind. If one exposes himself to certain things, like watching a bad movie, even if he does not consent directly to impure thoughts, there still may be a venial culpability because a specific decision occasioned the thoughts.

Yes, thank you Ladislaus.

Ex nihilo thoughts, are those ideas that just come "out of nowhere", with no seeming relation to anything you are experiencing or are witnessing, with no apparent logical connection etc.

While with"exogenous ideas" I tried to describe, as you say, for instance a movie, a picture, an article from a newspaper, a comment from someone both in real life or the internet and so on. Meaning ideas you come in contact with, often involuntarily.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #10 on:** January 06, 2016, 02:58:17 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Desmond
I'm uncertain, due to the extreme subjectivisation in contemporary catholic moral theology (?), about this topic.

In general, does it make a difference if thoughts are voluntary or not in regards to their sinful nature?

We must confess all sins, mortal, venial and those we are unsure of.

That's not true. There's no strict obligation to confess venial sins. Nor, according to probabilists like St. Alphonsus, is there a strict obligation to confess doubtful sins ... subject to your confessor. Confessors are taught to forbid scrupulous persons from confessing doubtful sins ... whereas the lax might be told to confess them.

Stubborn · « **Reply #11 on:** January 06, 2016, 03:01:01 PM »

What if you only think you committed a venial sin but it was actually a mortal sin, but you did not confess it because you weren't sure or thought it was "only" a venial sin?

OHCA · « **Reply #12 on:** January 06, 2016, 08:51:12 PM »

I'm surprised that InfiniteFaith has been able to resist chiming in on this topic. Strikes me as a topic right down his alley to jump in with a bunch of armchair pontificating.

Lighthouse · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2016, 11:00:50 PM »

Quote

I think that he's referring to thoughts that pop into your head for no reason, out of nowhere, or from outside ... as opposed to thoughts that a person might generate from within his own mind.

I wasn't really looking for an explanation, but only laughing at the OP's unique style of throwing Bull Manure.

How could a thought come from nowhere?

poche · « **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2016, 11:49:25 PM »

Quote from: Lighthouse

Quote
I think that he's referring to thoughts that pop into your head for no reason, out of nowhere, or from outside ... as opposed to thoughts that a person might generate from within his own mind.

I wasn't really looking for an explanation, but only laughing at the OP's unique style of throwing Bull Manure.

How could a thought come from nowhere?

That is what the devil wants you to think.
:really-mad2: :really-mad2: :really-mad2: