Author Topic: Should you pray for your enemies? (Read 1366 times)

soulguard · « **on:** November 08, 2013, 10:33:05 AM »

Honestly who does it? And who expects to succeed?
My Douay Rheims has footnotes on scripture, one of which explains that we should pray for our enemies, but not expect our prayers to be answered.

Point is, the amount of suffering and fasting and mortification and prayer needed to win the grace of someone's conversion is so great, that scarcely one person could be converted with a life time of penance in their favour.
Add to that the fact that they must also fight their own battles with sin, and what do you have? A hopeless situation when it comes to those who love evil.

Saint Augustine's mother prayed for him unceasingly and suffered much for him. It was said to her "the son of these tears will not be lost."

Who is willing to do penance enough to convert someone to the faith?
And who would spend time on it if such a person had no access to the mass or any information from Traditional Catholics, because they would fare poorly in their battle against sin then?

songbird · « **Reply #1 on:** November 08, 2013, 10:42:48 AM »

St Teresa of Avila had nuns that did just that. Do we still have people like this, yes, they are known as victims for Christ. We may not know of them, but they are few and far between. The Cure of Ars was another and proved that one person could change many! Nothing is hopeless and how could we judge. But the devil would certainly like us to think that our prayers are on deaf ears, not the case!

jen51 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 08, 2013, 10:44:55 AM »

Ok, Debbie Downer!!

Of course we should pray for our enemies, and of course we should hope that our penances on their behalf will convert them in the end.

Just because it is hard, laborious, and the chances seem slim (from our point of view) that our penances would save their soul, does not mean we shouldn't even try. To pray for our enemies is a penance in itself- good not only for them, but for yourself as well. It's a win-win, spiritually. Temporally it's no fun, but who said making sacrafices is fun.

soulguard · « **Reply #3 on:** November 08, 2013, 10:47:45 AM »

This might sound bad...but the only people I see any point in praying for are traditional Catholics. Why? because they know what they need to know to avoid all sin and get to heaven. God is not as merciful as people make him out to be, he is a severe judge, and he does not "understand".

Dolores · « **Reply #4 on:** November 08, 2013, 11:20:51 AM »

Quote from: soulguard

This might sound bad...but the only people I see any point in praying for are traditional Catholics.

If you truly believe this, then you are no traditional Catholic. Did you ever consider that it may not be for you to "see any point" in God's command? Perhaps it is just for you to follow his Word. If you choose not to pray for anyone other than traditional Catholics, then you are disregarding Christ's own words, not unlike those you are refusing to pray for.

Quote from: St. Matthew 5:43-48

You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thy enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

Do not be like the publicans and heathens that Christ condemns, or else He may condemn you too.

And remember, although it may not seem fair to the pious ear, it is God's word:

Quote from: St. Luke 15:7

I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.

soulguard · « **Reply #5 on:** November 08, 2013, 11:53:01 AM »

Well then I am no "traditional Catholic" if God goes by your definition.

My definition however is that we ought to rejoice in the punishment of the wicked, and if some evil doer goes too far in sin, I have the honesty to say that he is lost and there is no way back for him. No prayer I say will override his free will to sin. Any grace won by me would be lost by such a person by the on going habits of sin. Thus unless a person change their ways, and believe as a Traditional Catholic does, there is no hope of grace taking root in him, therefore praying for him is in vain. Instead, action is called for.

Memento · « **Reply #6 on:** November 08, 2013, 11:57:55 AM »

Soul guard,
This is how I see it. I had not practiced the faith for years and one day my ears heard the truth, my heart had a pang and I came back to the faith. Somehow my hardened heart was melted. I believe someone was praying very hard for me.

On the day of his death St. Stephen prayed for Saul who later became St. Paul. Please read the Haydock Commentary very carefully.

[56] And they crying out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and with one accord ran violently upon him. [57] And casting him forth without the city, they stoned him; and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man, whose name was Saul. [58] And they stoned Stephen, invoking, and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. [59] And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying: Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep in the Lord. And Saul was consenting to his death.
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51007.htm

Ver. 58. Invoking. See with what arms St. Stephen defended himself against the fury of his enemies. He puts on charity for a breast-plate, and by that came off victorious. By his love of God, he resisted the enraged Jєωs; by the love he bore his neighbour, he prayed for those that stoned him. Through charity, he admonished them of their errors, in order to their amendment; through charity, he besought the divine goodness not to punish their crimes against him. Leaning on charity, he overcame the cruelty of Saul, and merited to have him a companion in heaven, who had been his chief persecutor on earth. (St. Fulgentius, Serm. de S. Steph.) --- We here again see the powerful intercession of the saints; "for," says St. Augustine, "if Stephen had not thus prayed, the Church would not have to glory in a St. Paul. Si Stephanus non sic orasset, Ecclesia Paulum non haberet." (Serm. i. de S. Steph.)
http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id122.html

Matto · « **Reply #7 on:** November 08, 2013, 12:41:42 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

This might sound bad...but the only people I see any point in praying for are traditional Catholics. Why? because they know what they need to know to avoid all sin and get to heaven. God is not as merciful as people make him out to be, he is a severe judge, and he does not "understand".

It seems that traditional Catholics have the best chance of making it to heaven, but many traditional Catholics weren't always traditional Catholics and it may have been the prayers of others that helped convert them.

Gimli · « **Reply #8 on:** November 08, 2013, 12:55:19 PM »

I would prefer to give a "Dirty Harry" treatment to a child molester and rapist than pray for the monster. If that would send me to hell and close the pearly gates for me it would be worth it.

shin · « **Reply #9 on:** November 08, 2013, 12:58:46 PM »

'If a man finds it very hard to forgive injuries, let him look at a crucifix, and think that Christ has shed all His Blood for him, and not only forgave his enemies, but prayed the Eternal Father to forgive them also. Let him remember also that when he says the Pater Noster every day, instead of asking pardon for his sins, he is calling down vengeance upon them.'

St. Philip Neri

'Forgetting offences is a sign of sincere repentance. If you keep the memory of them, you may believe you have repented but you are like someone running in his sleep. Let no one consider it a minor defect, this darkness that often clouds the eyes even of spiritual people.'

St. John Climacus

'Saint John did not absolutely forbid that prayer should be made for those who "sin unto death," since he knew that Moses, Jeremiah, and Stephen had so prayed, and he himself implies that forgiveness is not to be denied them. Such intercessors, then, must be sought for after very grievous sins, for if any ordinary persons pray they are not heard. . . Stephen prayed for his persecutors, who had not been able even to listen to the Name of Christ, when he said of those very men by whom he was being stoned: "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge" And we see the result of this prayer in the case of the Apostle, for Paul, who kept the garments of those who were stoning Stephen, not long after became an apostle by the grace of God, having before been a persecutor.'

St. Ambrose of Milan

'There is a sin which is always "unto death" (1 John 5:16): the sin for which we do not repent. For this sin even a saint's prayers will not be heard.'

St. Mark the Ascetic

'He that seeketh to revenge himself, shall find vengeance from the Lord, and he will surely keep his sins in remembrance.

Forgive thy neighbour if he hath hurt thee: and then shall thy sins be forgiven to thee when thou prayest.

Man to man reserveth anger, and doth he seek remedy of God? He hath no mercy on a man like himself, and doth he entreat for his own sins? He that is but flesh, nourisheth anger, and doth he ask forgiveness of God? who shall obtain pardon for his sins?'

Ecclesiasticus 28:1-5

shin · « **Reply #10 on:** November 08, 2013, 01:06:29 PM »

'Now, there was an anchorite called Timothy in a coenobium. The abbot, having heard of a brother who was being tempted, asked Timothy about him, and the anchorite advised him to drive the brother away.

Then when he had been driven away, the brother's temptation fell upon Timothy to the point where he was in danger. Then Timothy stood up before God and said, "I have sinned. Forgive me." Then a voice came which said to him, "Timothy, the only reason I have done this to you is because you despised your brother in the time of his temptation."'

St. Poemen

'Jesus said to them: Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you.'

Matthew 17:19

One of the meanings of the mountain in the above passage, I have read, is 'sin' oddly enough considering its usually being a holy place.. But from what I have read, prayer and faith, to move 'the mountain of sin'.

We have a weight of justice against our own selves, that how it is weighed depends upon our own forgiveness and mercy and help towards others. . . We have a duty towards others we encounter. The holier one is the more one has a chance to bring those terribly unlikely to be saved, as far as can be seen, to rescue. . .

It is a hard thing to think of anyone in Hell, so one prays. . . Perhaps one's own prayer is not what tips the scales, but perhaps it is, joined with others.. or perhaps a promise of God..

Praying for one's enemies can be more efficacious than one thinks it might be, because it is so rarely done (truly done from the heart) it is the more valuable before God. What is rare is valuable, what is truly virtuously done is precious.

jen51 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 08, 2013, 01:11:54 PM »

Thanks for those, Shin.

Our Lord speaks of forgiving people their offenses as well. Soulguard, I hope you will not remain unmoved when presented with commands from Our Lord, and quotes from great Saints.

1 Luke 23:34
And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. But they, dividing his garments, cast lots.

2 Matthew 6:15
But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.

3 Matthew 6:14
For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences.

4 Mark 11:26
But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins.

5 Matthew 18:35
So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

6 Mark 11:25
And when you shall stand to pray, forgive, if you have aught against any man; that your Father also, who is in heaven, may forgive you your sins.

Dolores · « **Reply #12 on:** November 08, 2013, 01:26:54 PM »

Quote from: soulguard

Well then I am no "traditional Catholic" if God goes by your definition.

A traditional Catholic is one who follows all of the Church's true teachings, which come from God, including the one about praying for one's enemies.

Quote from: soulguard

My definition however is that we ought to rejoice in the punishment of the wicked, and if some evil doer goes too far in sin, I have the honesty to say that he is lost and there is no way back for him. No prayer I say will override his free will to sin. Any grace won by me would be lost by such a person by the on going habits of sin. Thus unless a person change their ways, and believe as a Traditional Catholic does, there is no hope of grace taking root in him, therefore praying for him is in vain. Instead, action is called for.

First of all, it is very basic Catholic teaching that no man's soul is lost while he is still alive. No matter what sin he has committed, and no matter how long he has been in his sinful ways, he can always repent, and be forgiven. To suggest otherwise is heresy, pure and simple.

All men, traditional Catholics or otherwise, are only able to avoid sin and serve God through God's grace. We can do nothing on our own. A sinner is absolutely incapable of changing his ways unless God provides grace to him.

Take a step back, and think about what you are suggesting. You believe that your enemies are sinners bound for hell because they disobey God, and are therefore not worthy of your prayers. BUT YOU ARE DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING. You are disobeying a very clear directive, from Christ Himself, to pray for your enemies. By disobeying God, you are lumping yourself in with the wicked that you relish in seeing punished.

shin · « **Reply #13 on:** November 08, 2013, 01:37:25 PM »

Quote

from your hearts.

And you too Jen.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #14 on:** November 08, 2013, 02:10:07 PM »

I find this thread very difficult to read.

How can we NOT forgive and pray for our enemies? WE are Our Lord's enemies every time we sin, which we do hundreds of times a day.

Everything we have is from God's Mercy. Those who do not sin as others do are essentially just pre-forgiven by God's grace. Without God's undeserved mercy and free grace, we can do very little besides sin. When St. Augustine was attacked for the sinful life he led before becoming a Christian, he responded by saying that it was the same grace which converted him from sin that preserved his critics from the same sins.

I have not seen a person so corrupt and so sinful that I could not imagine being worse than were I deprived of God's Mercy and Grace.