Author Topic: Should we be punished for our past sins? (Read 1245 times)

InfiniteFaith · « **on:** July 14, 2014, 08:22:19 PM »

Lets take a child molester for example. A man molested children in his past but then later in life becomes a believer and repents for his sins. I realize that this is one of those sins that causes public outrage, and if the public were made aware of someone doing something like this it might cause someone to be murdered over it. But does a repentant believer deserve punishment? Or should people just kind of get over it and move on? As difficult as it may seem to be. I understand that it is probably justifiable to utilize capital punishment in a case like this. But what if many years went by and the sinner later repented and believed? Should capital punishment, or any other form of punishment, be implemented at that point?

P.S. I am by no means a child molester nor would I want to do such a thing to someone. But this is one of those things that falls into the "heinous acts" category, and I thought it would make a good example.

OHCA · « **Reply #1 on:** July 14, 2014, 08:36:36 PM »

If I understand correctly, even after confessing & doing the penance given in the sacrament, sometimes more atonement/punishment is required. That is one of the purposes of purgatory. It is also my understanding that punishment in this life can sometimes be of sufficient magnitude to reduce or eliminate punishment in purgatory. Thus, from a religious perspective, punishment in this life may be healthy for the transgressor by more fully imparting the gravity of his offense upon him & reducing his time in purgatory.

From the legal/societal perspective, punishment still serves a purpose in the scenario you set out. Perhaps factors favor a somewhat mitigated punishment--but punishment is still just.

Ideally, this world would mirror Heaven & the most just Judge--God is Just & Merciful--not just without mercy--not merciful without justice--Just AND Merciful.

InfiniteFaith · « **Reply #2 on:** July 14, 2014, 08:39:57 PM »

Quote from: OHCA

If I understand correctly, even after confessing & doing the penance given in the sacrament, sometimes more atonement/punishment is required. That is one of the purposes of purgatory. It is also my understanding that punishment in this life can sometimes be of sufficient magnitude to reduce or eliminate punishment in purgatory. Thus, from a religious perspective, punishment in this life may be healthy for the transgressor by more fully imparting the gravity of his offense upon him & reducing his time in purgatory.

From the legal/societal perspective, punishment still serves a purpose in the scenario you set out. Perhaps factors favor a somewhat mitigated punishment--but punishment is still just.

Ideally, this world would mirror Heaven & the most just Judge--God is Just & Merciful--not just without mercy--not merciful without justice--Just AND Merciful.

I would like to see why you believe this though. Also, should the punishment only be dealt through the legal system? Would following a convicted child molester around the rest of his/her life and spreading that person's fault to people he/she associates with be just punishment? It seems to me that would fall under detraction. I think any type of punishment would have to be dealt with through the legal system for it to be just.

OHCA · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2014, 08:50:33 PM »

I agree. Except if the people spreading it thought doing so was necessary to protect somebody else from being victimized.

Why I believe what part of what I said?

InfiniteFaith · « **Reply #4 on:** July 14, 2014, 08:56:00 PM »

Quote from: OHCA

I agree. Except if the people spreading it thought doing so was necessary to protect somebody else from being victimized.

Why I believe what part of what I said?

Even then I don't know if I agree with you. What you are saying about protecting someone from being victimized...that would still fall under detraction. I can't see how that would negate detraction...unless it says that somewhere. And if the person were a believer then do you really think they would be a threat?

poche · « **Reply #5 on:** July 15, 2014, 12:16:28 AM »

Better to have our Purgatory in this life than in the next.

ggreg · « **Reply #6 on:** July 15, 2014, 01:03:36 AM »

How often does a child rapist truly repent?

I would think it was an extremely rare event and wishful thinking 99.99 percent of the time.

I'm of the opinion that certain sins pollute your soul so badly that repentance would need to be a very rare and special grace. Exorcists talk of the "perfectly possessed", a class of people who are happy and content with being completely given over to evil.

So while it is a theoretically possible one could repent, I doubt it ever happens. Ask a trad priest you trust if he has ever known of a case of a child rapist repenting and becoming a Catholic in good standing.

The Penny Catechism · « **Reply #7 on:** July 15, 2014, 12:02:47 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

Exorcists talk of the "perfectly possessed", a class of people who are happy and content with being completely given over to evil.

you mean like J. Beedem ?

InfiniteFaith · « **Reply #8 on:** July 15, 2014, 02:34:15 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

How often does a child rapist truly repent?

I would think it was an extremely rare event and wishful thinking 99.99 percent of the time.

I'm of the opinion that certain sins pollute your soul so badly that repentance would need to be a very rare and special grace. Exorcists talk of the "perfectly possessed", a class of people who are happy and content with being completely given over to evil.

So while it is a theoretically possible one could repent, I doubt it ever happens. Ask a trad priest you trust if he has ever known of a case of a child rapist repenting and becoming a Catholic in good standing.

I don't think it says that anywhere though. I think people think this way sometimes because it is one of those things that causes people to become angry. So then they don't want to believe that a person who has done that can be forgiven.

I'm pretty sure that scripture states that even the most heinous sins can be forgiven. Nothing suggests that the chances of someone gaining forgiveness is less after having committed the most heinous of sins. Not unless you know of a source somewhere that says that.

What you are saying almost sounds like blasphemy. It could make some people think that they are not worthy of forgiveness.

Cato · « **Reply #9 on:** July 15, 2014, 04:52:46 PM »

Quote from: OHCA

If I understand correctly, even after confessing & doing the penance given in the sacrament, sometimes more atonement/punishment is required. That is one of the purposes of purgatory. It is also my understanding that punishment in this life can sometimes be of sufficient magnitude to reduce or eliminate punishment in purgatory. Thus, from a religious perspective, punishment in this life may be healthy for the transgressor by more fully imparting the gravity of his offense upon him & reducing his time in purgatory.

From the legal/societal perspective, punishment still serves a purpose in the scenario you set out. Perhaps factors favor a somewhat mitigated punishment--but punishment is still just.

Ideally, this world would mirror Heaven & the most just Judge--God is Just & Merciful--not just without mercy--not merciful without justice--Just AND Merciful.

That's my understanding of it as well. If you confess the sin you are forgiven, but still due temporal punishment. This will be exacted on this planet or in purgatory.

It's in the Catechism (around item 2000), I'll look it up when I get a chance.

OHCA · « **Reply #10 on:** July 15, 2014, 06:28:26 PM »

IF: "Or should people just kind of get over it and move on?"

Ask the victims. Ask the victims' parents & grandparents. Ask a victim & her husband who learn on their wedding night that the bride's trauma is renewed by intimacy with her husband and always will be.

We are not God & cannot know with certainty whether a child molester will reoffend or not. Thus, I would err on the side of protecting children. If one has truly repented then he has come to terms with the monstrousness of his prior conduct and, though probably pained, will be understanding as to why people are wary of him being around children.

Never say never and never say always--but I have an extremely difficult time envisioning myself ever associating with a child molester no matter how much he has repented. A child molester deserves being ostracized from society (frankly much worse). His soul & whether or not he has repented is between him, his confessor, and God. Again, if he has repented he should understand and accept the "punishments" of this life and fervently work & pray for the salvation of his eternal soul.

InfiniteFaith · « **Reply #11 on:** July 15, 2014, 07:21:46 PM »

Quote from: OHCA

IF: "Or should people just kind of get over it and move on?"

Ask the victims. Ask the victims' parents & grandparents. Ask a victim & her husband who learn on their wedding night that the bride's trauma is renewed by intimacy with her husband and always will be.

We are not God & cannot know with certainty whether a child molester will reoffend or not. Thus, I would err on the side of protecting children. If one has truly repented then he has come to terms with the monstrousness of his prior conduct and, though probably pained, will be understanding as to why people are wary of him being around children.

Never say never and never say always--but I have an extremely difficult time envisioning myself ever associating with a child molester no matter how much he has repented. A child molester deserves being ostracized from society (frankly much worse). His soul & whether or not he has repented is between him, his confessor, and God. Again, if he has repented he should understand and accept the "punishments" of this life and fervently work & pray for the salvation of his eternal soul.

I can understand there being a punishment (up to death) for certain offenses. I think if the person shows signs of repentance, belief, and to refrain from those offenses ever again...then they should no longer be punished. Of course, we have to be careful in our judgement towards them. And yes, I agree, it is difficult to determine whether or not someone has repented. It seems to me that if someone goes to confession and mass on a regular basis then that would be sufficient enough. But if the person commits, in this case, child molestation after they have shown to be going to confession and mass on a regular basis...then that is a sign they are not a true believer. But I don't see the point in punishing a repentant believer over and over again for the rest of their lives. Especially if the person has shown (with time) that they have turned away from these types of sins.

I don't think its really up to us to determine these types of things...we should leave it up to the Lord...

Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. -Roman 12:19

InfiniteFaith · « **Reply #12 on:** July 15, 2014, 08:07:33 PM »

Just to expound on my previous post...

Its kinda like Saul was known to persecute Christians up until his conversion experience. Should he have been known to be a Christian killer/persecuter even after he became a believer? Perhaps other Christians should have treated him as such for the rest of his life. After all, just to be on the safe side, everyone should have known that St. Paul was a Christian killer/persecuter so that they can maintain their safety when he is around. It would be for the common good would it not?

I don't believe so. Nor do I think they treated Paul as such after he became a believer. There is a conversion of heart at that point, and Paul was no longer a threat.

I think it would be detraction to reveal someone's past sins (before they were a believer), no matter how heinous they are, after the person has become a believer and shown so.