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Author Topic: Serious Question about Baptism  (Read 846 times)

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Offline MyrnaM

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Serious Question about Baptism
« on: September 08, 2013, 08:36:19 PM »
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  • Lately I have been doing quite a bit of reading about Baptism, and something is missing.

    Maybe someone reading knows the answer.

    In the Old Testament circuмcision was sort of a baptism in that it removed original sin.

    My question is:  What about the girls, women?  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/


    Offline rlee

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    Serious Question about Baptism
    « Reply #1 on: September 09, 2013, 10:45:37 AM »
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  • Wish I had more time to research this for you but will go out on a limb from memory of my Catholic instruction.

    Don't believe that the Church, pre VII, taught that circuмcision remitted original sin. While a few early Church Fathers might have hinted at this, the opposite is found in dogma.

    The Council of Florence, Bull "Exultate Deo," 1439.
    "...There are seven sacraments of the new Law: ..., which differ a great deal from the sacraments of the Old Law. For those of the Old Law did not effect grace, but only pronounced that it should be given through the passion of Christ; these sacraments of ours contain grace, and confer it upon those who receive them worthily."

    If the contrary is being taught in the post VII Church in some places now I wouldn't die of shock, but would take it as another sure sign of the Church failing to practice true Charity to the Jєωs..

    The Jєωs could not (and still can not) go to heaven. Christ had to descend into Hell go open the gates of heaven to those who had made themselves worthy under the Old Law. They are the only class of Jєωs to go there, but they merited it by being faithful to the Redeemer until He came, rather than because they were Jєωs per se.

    Circuмcision was done to boys as a sign of their belonging to the Jєωιѕн religion.

    As there was no corresponding ceremony for females you'd be left to wonder at the injustice of women being excluded from remission of Original Sin under the Old Law if in fact circuмcision accomplished this.

    Best wishes in learning more about this on your own or from others here. Please add more to the thread if you have more to share.

    God bless You.

    PAX


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Serious Question about Baptism
    « Reply #2 on: September 09, 2013, 12:32:50 PM »
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  • I truly thank you.  

    Does what you say mean there are souls in Heaven with original sin.  St. Anne for example, the mother of Our Lady? Or is this another mystery of our faith that we will have to wait till we get to Heaven.    :confused1:

    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline clare

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    Serious Question about Baptism
    « Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 01:00:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    I truly thank you.  

    Does what you say mean there are souls in Heaven with original sin.  St. Anne for example, the mother of Our Lady? Or is this another mystery of our faith that we will have to wait till we get to Heaven.    :confused1:



    St Thomas Aquinas has the answer:
    Quote
    Reply to Objection 2. The holy Fathers while yet living were delivered from original as well as actual sin through faith in Christ; also from the penalty of actual sins, but not from the penalty of original sin, whereby they were excluded from glory, since the price of man's redemption was not yet paid: just as the faithful are now delivered by baptism from the penalty of actual sins, and from the penalty of original sin as to exclusion from glory, yet still remain bound by the penalty of original sin as to the necessity of dying in the body because they are renewed in the spirit, but not yet in the flesh, according to Romans 8:10: "The body indeed is dead, because of sin; but the spirit liveth, because of justification."

    Reply to Objection 3. Directly Christ died His soul went down into hell, and bestowed the fruits of His Passion on the saints detained there; although they did not go out as long as Christ remained in hell, because His presence was part of the fulness of their glory.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Serious Question about Baptism
    « Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 07:51:53 PM »
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  • Circuмcision had nothing to do with the removal of Original sin, sounds like, It was their Faith that saved them.   Hmmmm!


    Living as a Christian in those days, the Faith was easier to recognize, seekers did not have to sift through Protestantism, Mormon, and all the false religions we have today, including Vatican II New Church.  

    I wonder why so many believe it was circuмcision that removed Original sin.   Really it couldn't have been, since the girls would have gone to their eternity with Original sin, and we have many Old Testament female Saints.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/


    Offline Cristian

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    Serious Question about Baptism
    « Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 08:45:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Lately I have been doing quite a bit of reading about Baptism, and something is missing.

    Maybe someone reading knows the answer.

    In the Old Testament circuмcision was sort of a baptism in that it removed original sin.

    My question is:  What about the girls, women?  


    According to the theologians circuмcision was one of the sacraments of the old Law. The differences between the sacraments of the new Law with those of the old Law is that the former ones are not only sign of grace but also that they produce it. Now, the sacraments of the old Law, although didn´t produce grace by themselves, yet they were the occasion by which God produced it.

    St. Thomas here says: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4070.htm#article4

    Quote
    I answer that, All are agreed in saying that original sin was remitted in circuмcision. But some said that no grace was conferred, and that the only effect was to remit sin. The Master holds this opinion (Sent. iv, D, 1), and in a gloss on Romans 4:11. But this is impossible, since guilt is not remitted except by grace, according to Romans 3:2: "Being justified freely by His grace," etc.

    Wherefore others said that grace was bestowed by circuмcision, as to that effect which is the remission of guilt, but not as to its positive effects; lest they should be compelled to say that the grace bestowed in circuмcision sufficed for the fulfilling of the precepts of the Law, and that, consequently, the coming of Christ was unnecessary. But neither can this opinion stand. First, because by circuмcision children. received the power of obtaining glory at the allotted time, which is the last positive effect of grace. Secondly, because, in the order of the formal cause, positive effects naturally precede those that denote privation, although it is the reverse in the order of the material cause: since a form does not remove a privation save by informing the subject.

    Consequently, others said that grace was conferred in circuмcision, also as a particular positive effect consisting in being made worthy of eternal life; but not as to all its effects, for it did not suffice for the repression of the concupiscence of the fomes, nor again for the fulfilment of the precepts of the Law. And this was my opinion at one time (Sent. iv, D, 1; 2, 4). But if one consider the matter carefully, it is clear that this is not true. Because the least grace can resist any degree of concupiscence, and avoid every mortal sin, that is committed in transgressing the precepts of the Law; for the smallest degree of charity loves God more than cupidity loves "thousands of gold and silver" (Psalm 118:72).

    We must say, therefore, that grace was bestowed in circuмcision as to all the effects of grace, but not as in Baptism. Because in Baptism grace is bestowed by the very power of Baptism itself, which power Baptism has as the instrument of Christ's Passion already consummated. Whereas circuмcision bestowed grace, inasmuch as it was a sign of faith in Christ's future Passion: so that the man who was circuмcised, professed to embrace that faith; whether, being an adult, he made profession for himself, or, being a child, someone else made profession for him. Hence, too, the Apostle says (Romans 4:11), that Abraham "received the sign of circuмcision, a seal of the justice of the faith": because, to wit, justice was of faith signified: not of circuмcision signifying. And since Baptism operates instrumentally by the power of Christ's Passion, whereas circuмcision does not, therefore Baptism imprints a character that incorporates man in Christ, and bestows grace more copiously than does circuмcision; since greater is the effect of a thing already present, than of the hope thereof.


    For girls there was a sacrament during the period of natural Law which apparently continued during the old Law, called "remedium naturae" (medicine of the nature).

    Other sacraments of the old Law were the paschal lamb, the consecration, and certain sacrifices for sin.

    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    Serious Question about Baptism
    « Reply #6 on: September 10, 2013, 01:11:49 PM »
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  • I just love the book of Leviticus (because it points to the future Sacraments)! There are laws about childbirth that the Hebrews had to follow (Lev 12), which underscore the concept of original sin. Circuмcision alone didn't do the trick for the Hebrews: the mothers were "unclean" (treated like a leper) for 40 days after having a baby boy, and for 80 days after having baby girls. I think that's a sign of recognition of original sin. But even then (the boys circuмcised, the moms unclean for a month or two), it wasn't over yet: the parents had to take a lamb (or birds for poor people) to the priest to be slaughtered for "purification", which (to me) points to directly to Baptism —though it wasn't Baptism, of course, but it was faith.

    (Though I'm sure there were plenty of "cradle Hebrews" who just did what they were used to, and weren't really into the ceremonies.)
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Serious Question about Baptism
    « Reply #7 on: September 10, 2013, 05:27:50 PM »
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  • It seems that everything that was posted so far, all comes down to Faith.  Since the Old Law sacraments were not really sacraments at all in the sense that the sacraments are of the New Law.  

    God judges us by what He gave us to be judged by, right from the beginning.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/