Author Topic: Separation of Church and State..  (Read 1203 times)

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Offline s2srea

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Separation of Church and State..
« on: June 28, 2011, 08:04:23 PM »
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  • Can anyone help explain this to me in a little detail. I'm quite sure I understand how the secular world views this, and know it is wrong. But how would this function in a Republic? Is there a way to make this work, and if so, how?

    Offline Pyrrhos

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    Separation of Church and State..
    « Reply #1 on: June 29, 2011, 01:02:58 AM »
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  • Excuse me for asking, but I think I don´t quite understand the question. It sounds like you ask how one could separate Church from State in a Republic....but I guess you rather mean how they would be united in a Republic?

    For the latter part one could take recent historical examples Republics with Catholicism as state religion (Spain, Argentina, Ireland etc) or semi-separated versions as post-Concordat Germany.

    Compare the Spanish Concordat of 1953  or the Reichskonkordat of 1933 .

    Note that a concordat is not necessary for a true State-Church relationship, this rather arouse from the secularist policies before and after the French Revolution.
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus


    Offline s2srea

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    Separation of Church and State..
    « Reply #2 on: June 29, 2011, 08:07:08 AM »
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  • Thank you Phyrros-

    Yes, I suppose how they would be united in a Republic would be more proper. I know that there are those who have said that a Republic would work with Catholicism.  In the end though, and correct me if I'm wrong, a country should in some way unite itself with the Church, is this correct?

    Offline Pyrrhos

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    Separation of Church and State..
    « Reply #3 on: June 29, 2011, 08:11:25 AM »
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  • This statement is correct. As a matter of fact the opposite one is a condemned sentence in Pius´ IX. Syllabus Errorum of 1864:

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    "the Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church." (No. 55)



    As I stated before in another thread, I also hold that republics can be Catholic just as monarchies can be heretical. The form of State is not the most important factor, but rather the form of government and the government itself.
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline Pyrrhos

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    Separation of Church and State..
    « Reply #4 on: June 29, 2011, 09:00:51 AM »
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  • One should maybe add that the seperation of Church and State is one of the fundamental doctrines of Liberalism and was constantly condemned by the Church authorities, probably for the first time in Mirari vos of Gregory XVI.:

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    20. Nor can We predict happier times for religion and government from the plans of those who desire vehemently to separate the Church from the state, and to break the mutual concord between temporal authority and the priesthood. It is certain that that concord which always was favorable and beneficial for the sacred and the civil order is feared by the shameless lovers of liberty.

    ...

    23. May Our dear sons in Christ, the princes, support these Our desires for the welfare of Church and State with their resources and authority. May they understand that they received their authority not only for the government of the world, but especially for the defense of the Church. They should diligently consider that whatever work they do for the welfare of the Church accrues to their rule and peace. Indeed let them persuade themselves that they owe more to the cause of the faith than to their kingdom. Let them consider it something very great for themselves as We say with Pope St. Leo, "if in addition to their royal diadem the crown of faith may be added." Placed as if they were parents and teachers of the people, they will bring them true peace and tranquility, if they take special care that religion and piety remain safe. God, after all, calls Himself "King of kings and Lord of lords."


    This was written in 1832, since a separation of Church and State was unthinkable before the times of the French Revolution. Fr. de Lamennais, to whom this Encyclical was actually addressed, was probably the first liberal who tried to unite liberalism and Catholicism under the pretense of Ultramontanism and freedom and growth for the Church.

    Since this time the genuine Church teaching regarding this matter was always the first point of attack for the enemies of Christ, and lastly the deciding and most obvious heresy (or error, if you have a different standpoint) of Vatican II. in Dignitatis Humanae.
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus


    Offline Raoul76

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    Separation of Church and State..
    « Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 03:05:13 PM »
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  • Separation of Church and state is the essence of Masonry.  It is the gateway drug that led to the full explosion of heresy and perversion in Vatican II.  It is the runway to Anti-Christ.  It is the real-life Pandora's Box that opens the door to every kind of evil.  

    People treat this evil too lightly, because they fall for the old Hegelian trap.  Since America doesn't outright forbid Catholicism, like England did, or Russia, even Catholics can be fooled into thinking it is a great nation where they are allowed to practice their faith without persecution.  I understand their perspective, but they fail to see the bigger picture.  What they don't realize is that any nation that refuses to be ruled by Christ and the Church, that boasts about freedom of religion, inevitably, will eventually push out and persecute the true religion.  How can a nation that prides itself on tolerance accept, for long, a religion like Catholicism that is, by definition, intolerant -- being the only one that is true?  

    That is why now, if you go into a police station, you will see an oath saying that the officers are sworn to fight against anti-Semitism and homophobia, psychological buzzwords that twist reality through language, since no one worries about fighting anti-Catholicism... See, in a "free" nation such as this one, Catholicism and its rules and its shackles will eventually become the enemy.  The only reason that Catholics aren't more persecuted here is that ( a ) The appearance of freedom must be maintained, while the devil rots the minds of people through the media and ( b ) Vatican II has eliminated the real power of Catholicism and replaced it with the exact same Masonic ideals that are touted by America, and this toothless, Judaized, Protestantized false Catholicism is not a threat to anyone.   But when Americans meet a real Catholic, it is almost always shocking and uncomfortable to them.  The devil allows the few that are left to survive; he already made the mistake of martyring the early Christians and look how well that worked out, it just made us stronger.  Now he has a different and far more effective, slow-acting poison, he whittles down the Catholic spirit over generations.

    What is really scary is when Masonic ideals creep into the minds of the Catholics themselves.  Hence you get the depressing spectacle of pro-Israel Catholics and pro-Masonic-democracy Catholics, certain people for whom a spurious imitation of "freedom" is more important than the rule of Christ the King.

    There is another reason why separation of Church and state is a scourge.  When huge nations began to separate Church and state, global finance ( run by Jews, of course ) put an inexorable pressure on old guard Catholic states to change.  For an example, just look at the forgotten Spanish-American war where the Americans wanted to get the fusty old Catholic Spaniards and bring their version of "freedom" to Cuba.  The sad part is that I hear many American bishops, if not most of them, were on the side of Masonic America.

    It's all well and good for, say, an Irish guy to prefer America to England since at least Catholics aren't persecuted here.  But what must be acknowledged is the longer-range plans of the devil and how America has been used to put these across.  When a nation like America, with its Masonic and latent anti-Catholic ideals, becomes a world-power, it forces other nations, in effect, to play along.  It seduces the other nations who want to share in our prosperity.  ( The Whore of Babylon, America, fornicates with all the kings of the Earth, meaning that the principle of America took down the monarchies ).  

    America, in her hot pants and high heels, sidles up to a king and says "Hey, big boy, what do you say we take a ride in my Ferrari?"  Gradually these kings start getting infected with Masonic ideals themselves.  Those who don't are simply bumped off.  World wars are designed, with Jewish money, to further decimate old-guard Catholic nations, whether monarchies or Republics ( World War I eliminated Austria as a Catholic power, World War II was a slaughter of Catholic Poland ).  Soon all nations are built on the American model.  There is absolutely nothing at that point that will stop the devil from getting into the Vatican, because there are very few Catholics left that have the money or the wherewithal to hold down the fort.  The frauds and the shysters, the greedy and the sell-outs, move in like a swarm of locusts.  Soon Rome is as infested by evil as Hollywood, and it is all arranged so that no one can change it, despite the SSPX and others who try to be traditional within a system that is fundamentally anti-traditional.  They are just dancing with the devil.

    People don't get just how essential it is that the American ideal dies, and that it dies hard.  They should be yearning for that with as much intensity as they yearn for the end of Vatican II.  They are connected, as well, since without America pushing freedom of religion, without America and its Jewish money-power pushing this, Vatican II would never have happened.  

    Those who want to go back to some kind of Founding Fathers libertarian fantasy don't get that America didn't just fall apart out of nowhere, due to bad morals or whatever.  It fell apart INEVITABLY.  It was never right, it was built on false principles, and what is built on false principles is doomed to failure.

    To finish off Vatican II, to truly scrape out the cancer that affects the world today, every last little cell of it, we have to go back to Catholic state rule.  People who don't get this are just running around like chickens with their heads cut off.  
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Pyrrhos

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    Separation of Church and State..
    « Reply #6 on: June 30, 2011, 12:51:39 AM »
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  • Thanks a lot Raoul, excellent posting.
    The only thing where I would somewhat disagree is a too much positive view on Spain during the times of the Spanish-American War. The outcome of the Carlist Wars was unfortunately a strongly liberal and freemasonic Spain, despite its golden crown (which was on the wrong head, anyway).
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline Daegus

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    Separation of Church and State..
    « Reply #7 on: June 30, 2011, 08:52:43 AM »
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  •  :whistleblower:

    Raoul! Please keep your posts documented somewhere. Write a book or a blog. That was fantastic and a very poignant way of describing the reality of separating Church and State.

     :applause:
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra


    Offline wallflower

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    « Reply #8 on: June 30, 2011, 09:30:59 AM »
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  • Very well said Raoul.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    « Reply #9 on: June 30, 2011, 04:06:28 PM »
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  • Raoul, you are a scholar.

    Offline s2srea

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    Separation of Church and State..
    « Reply #10 on: July 01, 2011, 10:48:26 AM »
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  • Raoul, touché- very much what I was looking for- Thumbs up-


     

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