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Author Topic: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion  (Read 1125 times)

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Offline CatholicInAmerica

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Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
« on: October 11, 2019, 08:00:23 AM »
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    • Too often people get caught up in arguments (especially on Cathinfo, Lad and Johnson I’m taking about you) about R&R vs sede. The reality is however, that we all have the same goal in mind, we all agree that the v2 claimants are heretics, we all agree that V2 and the new mass is abominable. And on top of that we all want the church to be restored and I feel that everyone on this forum (except some hardcore dimond fans) would accept a 100% orthodox pope. I think we should take it easy on the mudslinging because we agree on everything but 1 insignificant detail (the pope question). It is insignificant in hindsight because whether or not bergollio is a legit pope has no weight on our salvation, as we all agree he Will be condemned in the future. If tomorrow, a Pope st Pius X was to elected by the cardinals and immediately anathematized anyyhung after 1958, removed all the cardinals, removed all the liberal and homo clergy, welcomed the SSPX, cmri, sspv, resistance, I’m sure we all would be more than happy to call him pope. More importantly, how do you think a conservative novus ordo who’s considering coming to tradition feels when they see such fighting?  When they see the fighting, they read and accept idiots like Michael Matt who says to avoid the SSPX and similar groups. They become Taylor Marshall fssp and make no progress on their pathway to heaven. 

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 08:04:48 AM »
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    • Mostly agree.  Good points.  For my part, I will try to keep a cooler head.
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    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #2 on: October 11, 2019, 08:09:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 11, 2019, 08:04:48 AM
    Mostly agree.  Good points.  For my part, I will try to keep a cooler head.
    Very good. Too often dogmatic seeds call dogmatic R&R heretics and vice versa. However, neither are heretics because this whole situation is very very confusing and there are good points on both sides. 
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #3 on: October 11, 2019, 09:24:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on October 11, 2019, 08:00:23 AM
     If tomorrow, a Pope st Pius X was to elected by the cardinals and immediately anathematized anyyhung after 1958, removed all the cardinals, removed all the liberal and homo clergy, welcomed the SSPX, cmri, sspv, resistance, I’m sure we all would be more than happy to call him pope.
    I think the SSPX/Resistance/FSSP and other R&R types would be happy to call him Pope. But some of the sede groups might be stuck in a difficult situation as they have already declared the cardinals as heretics outside the Church and thus are not in a position to elect a Pope. Are there any major sede groups that think only the Pope is not a member of Church but still believe that there maybe some valid cardinals?
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    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 09:40:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mr G on October 11, 2019, 09:24:29 AM
    I think the SSPX/Resistance/FSSP and other R&R types would be happy to call him Pope. But some of the sede groups might be stuck in a difficult situation as they have already declared the cardinals as heretics outside the Church and thus are not in a position to elect a Pope. Are there any major sede groups that think only the Pope is not a member of Church but still believe that there maybe some valid cardinals?
    The privationists. I feel like the sspv would accept him too. The adherents to the cassiciacuм thesis would whole heartedly accept hum and an increasing number of full blown sedes are changing to adherents to the thesis. Many sedes would accept him though, no doubt. 

    Almost all sedes say “a future pope will comment on this” so there has to be a pope somehow
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 12:36:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on October 11, 2019, 08:00:23 AM
    Too often people get caught up in arguments (especially on Cathinfo, Lad and Johnson I’m taking about you) about R&R vs sede. The reality is however, that we all have the same goal in mind, we all agree that the v2 claimants are heretics, we all agree that V2 and the new mass is abominable. And on top of that we all want the church to be restored and I feel that everyone on this forum (except some hardcore dimond fans) would accept a 100% orthodox pope. I think we should take it easy on the mudslinging because we agree on everything but 1 insignificant detail (the pope question). It is insignificant in hindsight because whether or not bergollio is a legit pope has no weight on our salvation, as we all agree he Will be condemned in the future. If tomorrow, a Pope st Pius X was to elected by the cardinals and immediately anathematized anyyhung after 1958, removed all the cardinals, removed all the liberal and homo clergy, welcomed the SSPX, cmri, sspv, resistance, I’m sure we all would be more than happy to call him pope. More importantly, how do you think a conservative novus ordo who’s considering coming to tradition feels when they see such fighting?  When they see the fighting, they read and accept idiots like Michael Matt who says to avoid the SSPX and similar groups. They become Taylor Marshall fssp and make no progress on their pathway to heaven.

    There is NO WAY that sedevacantists and sedeprivationists will ever agree on what constitutes accepting..."a 100% orthodox pope." It's just not possible. Both groups have their hard-core adherents who condemn anyone who doesn't agree with their views. And if a possible 100% orthodox pope doesn't completely line up with their views in all respects, then he will no doubt be a heretic, according to them. There's no going back, once you've completely cut yourself off from the Pope. You'll not be able to think again like a Catholic, when it comes to the papacy. You're too far removed from it, and for too long.

    And then there are those sedevacantists who have this idea that the Pope becomes a divine being when he is validly elected, or nearly so. He's no longer just a man, but rather he is infused with divine knowledge or enlightenment or something like that, so that he can't possibly ever err. Maybe it's just a few sedes and sedeprivationists who think this way, but they exist. It seems rather gnostic to me.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #6 on: October 11, 2019, 12:55:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on October 11, 2019, 12:36:22 PM
    There is NO WAY that sedevacantists and sedeprivationists will ever agree on what constitutes accepting..."a 100% orthodox pope." It's just not possible. Both groups have their hard-core adherents who condemn anyone who doesn't agree with their views. And if a possible 100% orthodox pope doesn't completely line up with their views in all respects, then he will no doubt be a heretic, according to them. There's no going back, once you've completely cut yourself off from the Pope. You'll not be able to think again like a Catholic, when it comes to the papacy. You're too far removed from it, and for too long.

    And then there are those sedevacantists who have this idea that the Pope becomes a divine being when he is validly elected, or nearly so. He's no longer just a man, but rather he is infused with divine knowledge or enlightenment or something like that, so that he can't possibly ever err. Maybe it's just a few sedes and sedeprivationists who think this way, but they exist. It seems rather gnostic to me.

    I agree that once one arrogates to oneself the authority to determine who is, and who is not, a pope, that a principle is then established which will activate it in perpetuity, making every pontificate questionable or rejected by some.

    The false principle of private interpretation  is ruinous for unity and incompatible with the Church’s heirarchical constitution.

    Some sedes demonstrate the point by even questioning pre-conciliar papacies.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #7 on: October 11, 2019, 01:05:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 11, 2019, 12:55:13 PM
    I agree that once one arrogates to oneself the authority to determine who is, and who is not, a pope, that a principle is then established which will activate it in perpetuity, making every pontificate questionable or rejected by some.

    The false principle of private interpretation  is ruinous for unity and incompatible with the Church’s heirarchical constitution.

    Some sedes demonstrate the point by even questioning pre-conciliar papacies.

    Yes; it's the principle of the thing. If one absolutely rejects a Pope as invalid, then that establishes a precedent that no pope will ever be free from suspicion that he may not be a true pope. Yes, private interpretation has lot to do with it. But of course we all have to try to interpret the Crisis, and the Crisis of the Papacy too. That's sometimes difficult, which is why I rely on +ABL and others of his frame of mind to give a truly Catholic perspective on the Crisis, and the Papacy. Though +ABL didn't really focus so much on the Pope. For him, the apostasy was system-wide. He knew that Rome was inhabited by Modernists. This was his main concern; he didn't focus or isolate the Pope nearly as much as the sedes and sedeprivationists do. That's a BIG difference between the sedes and +ABL (R&R), IMO.

    You mention that some sedes demonstrate the point by even questioning the pre-conciliar papacies. Well, Fr. Gregory Hesse once said that he expected the sedes to one day tell him that there's not been a true Pope since St. Peter. He was joking of course, but he was also making a good point.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #8 on: October 11, 2019, 02:19:13 PM »
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    • It is quite revealing that you consider it "private interpretation" to notice the differences among

    "Jesus Christ is True Man and True God"

    and

    "Jesus sinned and made Himself the devil"

    and

    "Jesus was man, not God."

    In reality, it requires "private schizophrenia interpretation" to believe "God" and "not God" are the same.

    But then we are accustomed to see such lobotomized illogic; e.g., "all cardinals" is "the same" as "not all cardinals."


    It requires no private interpretation to recognize A ≠ not A.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #9 on: October 11, 2019, 02:37:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on October 11, 2019, 02:19:13 PM
    It is quite revealing that you consider it "private interpretation" to notice the differences among

    "Jesus Christ is True Man and True God"

    and

    "Jesus sinned and made Himself the devil"

    and

    "Jesus was man, not God."

    In reality, it requires "private schizophrenia interpretation" to believe "God" and "not God" are the same.

    But then we are accustomed to see such lobotomized illogic; e.g., "all cardinals" is "the same" as "not all cardinals."


    It requires no private interpretation to recognize A ≠ not A.

    Your mistake is that:

    1) You accept the truth of those quotes without a reputable source (ladislaus' admission, which I agree with), and against the denial of the Vatican.

    2) You also equate the necessity of rejecting an heretical statement with the authority and alleged duty to depose a pope (one universally recognized by the body of bishops, and therefore a dogmatic fact).

    3) You believe it a sign of fidelity to depose him, and of infidelity to recognize his legitimacy.  But in fact this is exactly backwards.
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    Offline Simple

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #10 on: October 11, 2019, 09:08:02 PM »
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    • The mind trap.  Lay folks have to have cooler heads on God's judgement and Providence. Heritics and queers will get their just punishment.  Catholics must maintain charity amongst themselves.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #11 on: October 11, 2019, 09:32:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Simple on October 11, 2019, 09:08:02 PM
    The mind trap.  Lay folks have to have cooler heads on God's judgement and Providence. Heritics and queers will get their just punishment.  Catholics must maintain charity amongst themselves.
    Maintaining charity, I agree, but not uniting the clans.  Sedes and R&R do not share the same doctrine.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #12 on: October 11, 2019, 09:52:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 11, 2019, 09:32:34 PM
    Maintaining charity, I agree, but not uniting the clans.  Sedes and R&R do not share the same doctrine.
    The full blown sedevacantist and the full blown R + R disagree on the doctrne of the papacy, almost always.  That's really the biggest difference, it seems to me.

    But the problem is there are variations of each position.  For instance, the dogmatic R + R would say its objectively a grave matter to have anything less than absolute certainty of Francis' pontificate.  But someone could also be R and R and still think the Church *could* eventually determine that these men weren't real popes, or something like that.  Someone could take the position that we don't and can't know whether they're legitimate.  Etc.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #13 on: October 12, 2019, 08:07:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 11, 2019, 12:55:13 PM
    I agree that once one arrogates to oneself the authority to determine who is, and who is not, a pope, that a principle is then established which will activate it in perpetuity, making every pontificate questionable or rejected by some.

    The false principle of private interpretation  is ruinous for unity and incompatible with the Church’s heirarchical constitution.

    Some sedes demonstrate the point by even questioning pre-conciliar papacies.
    As opposed to the private interpretation of declaring the Mass to be invalid, an Ecuмenical Council to be a heretical robber's council, and all Church teaching in the last 50 odd years to be heretical? R&R will tell you not to attend Mass if you have no Tridentine option available - but according to the Church to do such is mortally sinful. So R&R are happy to tell you to live in mortal sin(according to the Church) because in their private interpretation they judge the Church to be wrong.

    Once one arrogates oneself to the authority to determine whether each and every promulgation, law, order, missal etc. of a pope is valid, then all those things will find themselves questioned and rejected by some.

    See? Exact same argument applies.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sede vs R&R, blown out of proportion
    « Reply #14 on: October 12, 2019, 08:35:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on October 11, 2019, 08:09:31 AM
    Very good. Too often dogmatic seeds call dogmatic R&R heretics and vice versa. However, neither are heretics because this whole situation is very very confusing and there are good points on both sides.

    That's poor logic.  Just because each side makes good points, this does not mean that one side or another can't also make bad points, and even heretical ones.  Some R&R have embraced principles that are in fact objectively heretical, undermining the indefectibility of the Church and Traditional Catholic ecclesiology.  And I will never stop speaking out about these.  On the other hand, SOME sedevacantists have adopted what reduce to schismatic principles, and I will continue to speak about those as well.  I will not be silent under some false ecuмenical, "can't we all just get along?" rhetoric.  If I have serious theological problems with something, I will not just pretend that everything is fine.  That is emotional and effeminate, and it does no service to anyone.  At times I could see fit to tone down my rhetoric, but when confronted by some blockhead who is not in good faith but promoting an agenda, it may be required to get their attention.  Some of the things St. Jerome wrote against heretics would make ever our hair stand on end today.
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